Could electric freight locos be needed after HS2?

[squizzler]

When HS2 is finished, the old mainlines will be freed up in part for rail freight. Does anybody know how many new electric machines will be needed to haul all these freight services and when they will be likely to be ordered?

 

[Domh245]

Given the relatively small number of flows that can be done completely under the wires, as well as the relatively large number of diesel locomotives already available, I'd be very surprised to see any new electric freight locomotives ordered.

 

[DBS92042]

There is also a number of class 90s and 92s currently stored which, in theory, could be brought back to life if needed. Although I expect the repair costs for some of them will be quite large and others are probably too far gone already.

 

[59CosG95]

As everyone's saying above, there's basically no point ordering electric locos if there's no flows for them to run on electric the whole way. Yes, electrics with Last Mile capability are now available, but until more of the key freight arteries are wired, don't count on it.

 

[59CosG95]

For the curious, some of the unelectrified key freight arteries are as follows:

• Felixstowe Branch
• (Ipswich -) Haughley Jn - Ely - Peterborough
• Peterborough - Leicester - Nuneaton - Water Orton - Birmingham New St; Hams Hall, Birch Coppice & Lawley St are all served on this route west of Nuneaton
• GN/GE 'Joint Line' (Peterborough - Doncaster)
• The Cross Country Corridor (Colton Jn - Leeds - Sheffield - Derby - Tamworth HL - Water Orton - Camp Hill Line - Bromsgrove - Cheltenham - Bristol Parkway - Bristol TM - Cogload Jn)
• Vale of Glamorgan Line
• Reading West - Southampton Docks (although 3rd rail used from Basingstoke to Southampton)
• Newbury - Westbury - Merehead/Whatley (- Cogload Jn)
• MML north of Kettering
• Calder Valley Line
• Nuneaton - Coventry - Leamington - Banbury - Oxford - Didcot Parkway

There are also plenty infill schemes (GWML - NLL - MML; MML - GOBLIN etc) that could really make the case for new electric locos, but until those are wired, new electrics are a non-starter.

 

[Far north 37]

HS2 wont affect railfreight flows as no freight will run on it and no electric locos will be used in the construction not really understanding the questin to be honest.

 

[Domh245]

HS2 removes the fast services from the WCML (and others, after later stages) freeing up additional paths for stopping services and/or freight

 

[Far north 37]

HS2 removes the fast services from the WCML (and others, after later stages) freeing up additional paths for stopping services and/or freight

Cant see it making any difference to electric locos to be fair.

 

[edwin_m]

Might be a few more electric intermodals on the southern WCML, but not very many.

What might be more relevant is what happens over Shap and Beattock. Currently the three passenger services every hour run quite close together so a freight that sets out after the third one can get a fair way before it has to go into a loop for the ones in the next hour to pass through. HS2 plan to run half-hourly to Scotland, I don't think anyone has decided on the timetable for anything else on that route but it's clear the freight will be able to get less far unless it speeds up. A diesel freight takes about 15min longer to get over Shap, so will pretty much have to loop at the bottom and again at the top (and if it sets out from a standing start at Tebay it will be climbing that much more slowly). An electric has a better chance of getting further.

 

[Bald Rick]

There are also plenty infill schemes (GWML - NLL - MML; MML - GOBLIN etc) that could really make the case for new electric locos, but until those are wired, new electrics are a non-starter.

I’d be interested to know how many freight trains that use the link from the MML to Harringay (Carlton Rd to Junction Road) would be converted to electric operation if it was to be electrified. If it’s more than 1 each way a day, I’d be surprised. And it is a VERY expensive electrification on a per km basis.

There are far better places to electrify for freight - the Felixstowe and Gateway branches for starters, and Nuneaton to Lawley St as a main course.

 

[Far north 37]

Might be a few more electric intermodals on the southern WCML, but not very many.

What might be more relevant is what happens over Shap and Beattock. Currently the three passenger services every hour run quite close together so a freight that sets out after the third one can get a fair way before it has to go into a loop for the ones in the next hour to pass through. HS2 plan to run half-hourly to Scotland, I don't think anyone has decided on the timetable for anything else on that route but it's clear the freight will be able to get less far unless it speeds up. A diesel freight takes about 15min longer to get over Shap, so will pretty much have to loop at the bottom and again at the top (and if it sets out from a standing start at Tebay it will be climbing that much more slowly). An electric has a better chance of getting further.

They not sure yet if hs2 to scotland is going to be a whole new line ,but it reaching scoland is so many years away if it even ever does go ahead.

 

[59CosG95]

I’d be interested to know how many freight trains that use the link from the MML to Harringay (Carlton Rd to Junction Road) would be converted to electric operation if it was to be electrified. If it’s more than 1 each way a day, I’d be surprised. And it is a VERY expensive electrification on a per km basis.

There are far better places to electrify for freight - the Felixstowe and Gateway branches for starters, and Nuneaton to Lawley St as a main course.

Indeed, perhaps the Carlton Rd - Junction Rd link is much less of a priority than those two.

Perhaps Cricklewood/Hendon to Acton Yard as pudding? That would certainly allow for much more electric haulage on the GWML.

 

[Stephen Lee]

HS2 removes the fast services from the WCML (and others, after later stages) freeing up additional paths for stopping services and/or freight

Fast Services? Are you saying about the existing Avanti West Coast InterCity services?

 

[Domh245]

Fast Services? Are you saying about the existing Avanti West Coast InterCity services?

Yes..

 

[squizzler]

When HS2 is built, the class 90s will be about 40 years old, and at any rate they are a 110mph mixed traffic type and not ideal for purely freight duties. I suggest that they will not be a stalwart of the post HS2 freight scene, although it is not inconceivable there might still be LHCS on which they might be gainfully employed.

The Class 92 will probably remain a desirable heavy hauler, but there are fewer than 50 built.

Of modern 3 phase AC motored machines we have only a mere ten of the class 88 and possible similar number of class 93. I hope these locos amply demonstrate what modern technology can bring to the table in time for a big order of locos (either straight electric or tri-mode) with the correct gearing for intermodal freight.

 

[Bald Rick]

Perhaps Cricklewood/Hendon to Acton Yard as pudding? That would certainly allow for much more electric haulage on the GWML.

Same question for that as well. Acton Yard to Acton Wells / Acton Canal Wharf - WCML I can understand. But not via Neasden to Hendon etc. Almost all the traffic on it is stone or oil heading to/from the Midland / Peak quarries or Humberside refinieries.

Anyway back to OP, yes I’m fairly sure there will be more electric locos ordered, but not because of HS2. Partly to replace existing electric locos (some of which are well into their 6th decade), and partly because there may well be new incentives to encourage freight to use electric traction where it is available. Let’s not forget that most Class 66s are over 20years old and also pretty filthy in terms of emissions. It is going to be increasingly difficult for Government not to do something about diesel freight chucking out huge quantities of emissions on the NLL when the London ULEZ is expanded next year and all new buses / taxis are zero emission.

Expect more hybrids like the 88s.

 

[popeter45]

seeing how bi mode locomotives are showing themselves being the future/stopgaps to full electrification rally shows just how ahead of there time the class 73's where in terms of last mile diesel power

 

[Meerkat]

Excluding the obvious of more electrification what would be the best way for the government to encourage electric freight?
Probably going to have to be positives, as anything such as slowing down, restricting diesel routes etc would probably just drive the business away from Rail.
Cheap electricity charges?
Cheap loans or grants for ROSCOs to buy new locos?

 

[59CosG95]

Excluding the obvious of more electrification what would be the best way for the government to encourage electric freight?
Probably going to have to be positives, as anything such as slowing down, restricting diesel routes etc would probably just drive the business away from Rail.
Cheap electricity charges?
Cheap loans or grants for ROSCOs to buy new locos?

Upgrades to the power supply? The ECML is a case in point with this; barely any electric freight runs on the line as a result of there being very little in the way of spare power north of Newcastle to support additional electric services. TPE are still having to use diesel between Morpeth & Longniddry.

Easing timetable restrictions might tip the scales in favour of electrical haulage where possible, allowing traction changes to take place in more yards etc. Currently, electric/diesel changeovers only occur at (IIRC) Mossend, Crewe BH, Ripple Lane, Wembley EFOC, and Ipswich. But then again, to increase the number of yards where this could occur would need more electrification anyway.

For example, to turn the Mendip aggregate traffic over to electric haulage, you would need to wire up Acton Yard to the North London Line, and electrify west of Newbury to Westbury at the very least. Electric traction could give way to diesel at Westbury Yard.
To allow more changeovers to occur at Doncaster, you'd need to wire the route up between Shaftholme & Colton Junctions via Knottingley and Sherburn-in-Elmet as a diversionary route from the ECML (the only electric link between Doncaster & York).

I'm sure this could probably warrant its own thread though...

 

[Bald Rick]

Excluding the obvious of more electrification what would be the best way for the government to encourage electric freight?
Probably going to have to be positives, as anything such as slowing down, restricting diesel routes etc would probably just drive the business away from Rail.
Cheap electricity charges?
Cheap loans or grants for ROSCOs to buy new locos?

Track access charge discount for electric haulage would be an easy way to do it.

 

[edwin_m]

Buying some electric locos and giving them to the freight operators (on condition they use them on the relevant routes) would increase capacity on the northern WCML and possibly elsewhere, at far less cost than any infrastructure measures.

 

[Mag_seven]

Back in the day practically every freight train that had most of its journey on the WCML was electrically hauled with changeover to diesel taking place where necessary to continue its journey over non-electrified lines. What changed? We seem to have gone backwards in terms of freight train traction over electrified lines.

 

[SeanG]

There were many more locomotives then, and passenger trains also changed traction also. So I guess as passenger trains are now multiple units, and with many FOCs rather than just BR, it has become uneconomical to operators.

 

[Bald Rick]

Buying some electric locos and giving them to the freight operators (on condition they use them on the relevant routes) would increase capacity on the northern WCML and possibly elsewhere, at far less cost than any infrastructure measures.

And the GEML.

Back in the day practically every freight train that had most of its journey on the WCML was electrically hauled with changeover to diesel taking place where necessary to continue its journey over non-electrified lines. What changed? We seem to have gone backwards in terms of freight train traction over electrified lines.

Five things happened:

1) the railway got much more efficient in its use of expensive kit, like locos (and drivers!). By its nature, if you are changing locos you need more than if you don’t.

2) Diesel locos got more powerful

3) the price of diesel relative to electricity fell

4) the speed of the competition (road) rose as the motorway network was developed - having trains sat around changing locos didn’t help with end to end journey times (an important consideration for intermodal traffic)

5) there are a lot more trains on the Network, and some of the places where trains changed locos are just not viable now, eg Mitre Bridge Jn on the West London Line.

 

[edwin_m]

6) There are now multiple freight companies, some of which don't have electric locos. Even those that do have long gaps between services on electrified routes, so locos and drivers would have to "deadhead" to and from changeover points or waste a lot of time there between workings.

 

[43096]

6) There are now multiple freight companies, some of which don't have electric locos. Even those that do have long gaps between services on electrified routes, so locos and drivers would have to "deadhead" to and from changeover points or waste a lot of time there between workings.

There’s only Colas of the major players with no electric locos: DB, DRS, Freightliner and GBRf all have them.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Upgrades to the power supply? The ECML is a case in point with this; barely any electric freight runs on the line as a result of there being very little in the way of spare power north of Newcastle to support additional electric services. TPE are still having to use diesel between Morpeth & Longniddry.

How would this be done? Extra grid feeders and if so where? Or other?

 

[edwin_m]

How would this be done? Extra grid feeders and if so where? Or other?

There's a feeder at Marshall Meadows somewhere in the development or construction process.

 

[59CosG95]

How would this be done? Extra grid feeders and if so where? Or other?

There's a feeder at Marshall Meadows somewhere in the development or construction process.

Indeed, there and Hambleton Jct are due to get upgrades to the existing feeder arrangements with the installation of a Static Frequency Converter. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ecml-power-supply-upgrade.190071/post-4174598