Could 'dual-purpose' trains work?

[zwk500]

Who would run these trains? Whose safety case would they run on - passenger TOCs don't run freight trains and FOCs won't have a safety case to run passenger trains.

This is not strictly true - GBRf and DB Cargo certainly have a safety case for passenger trains as they run them in the WTT. Freightliner have run passenger trains in the past, but on a private basis and I'm not sure if they still have the safety case (nor which part of FL it was that had the case).

All of these questions are beyond the 'speculative/suggestion' stage and would have to be looked at if something like this was to be attempted.

No, they'd need to be questions with at least viable options before you start talking in serious voices about it.

I'm sure you could have both the TOC and the freight company taking responsibility for the train if both sides cooperated.

No, one TOC must be solely responsible for the train - even if a passenger and freight TOC took care of the 'customer' end for each part, it would be under one safety case. (DB Cargo have operated reliefs for Grand Central before, and although advertised as GC trains to the relevant people they were run as fully DB Cargo trains).

I think the speed would be determined by the speed that the freight train would normally run at.

Yes, speed would be limited by the slowest vehicle in the consist. So 75mph max.

 

[MarkyT]

Who would run these trains? Whose safety case would they run on - passenger TOCs don't run freight trains and FOCs won't have a safety case to run passenger trains. What would the reporting codes be and how would the trains get regulated - as a freight or a passenger train?

DB has a passenger operating license for the excursion business, but clearly that wouldn't automatically also apply to every freight operation they run, although it might qualify them to set up a suitable safe system for any operation they choose.

 

[12LDA28C]

This is not strictly true - GBRf and DB Cargo certainly have a safety case for passenger trains as they run them in the WTT. Freightliner have run passenger trains in the past, but on a private basis and I'm not sure if they still have the safety case (nor which part of FL it was that had the case).

Indeed, I was thinking more specifically Freightliner as the OP mentioned Southampton as a potential starting point.

My point was more which safety case would a mixed passenger/freight train run under as I'm sure the two safety cases would be rather different in detail and scope so which part of each would apply to a mixed train and how would that even work?

 

[Philip]

Yes, speed would be limited by the slowest vehicle in the consist. So 75mph max.

Not all freight trains are limited to 75mph, I know of at least one station comprising of fast and slow lines, with fast lines being 110mph. Freights have run on these fast tracks many times and have gone faster than 75 - 90mph at least I'd say.

 

[12LDA28C]

Not all freight trains are limited to 75mph, I know of at least one station comprising of fast and slow lines, with fast lines being 110mph. Freights have run on these fast tracks many times and have gone faster than 75 - 90mph at least I'd say.

Really?

Just because freight uses the 'fast lines' does not mean it can run at a higher speed.

The fastest conventional freight trains are Freightliners (Class 4) which can run at 75mph. Any other freight runs slower than that.

The only way to get around that is to use adapted passenger/parcels stock for freight which has been trialled very briefly but has not been adopted nationwide.

 

[zwk500]

Indeed, I was thinking more specifically Freightliner as the OP mentioned Southampton as a potential starting point.

I know Freightliner have run railtours in the past, but I'm not 100% up to date with what their current arrangements are.

My point was more which safety case would a mixed passenger/freight train run under as I'm sure the two safety cases would be rather different in detail and scope so which part of each would apply to a mixed train and how would that even work?

The safety case would almost certainly have to be modified to allow it to work.

Not all freight trains are limited to 75mph, I know of at least one station comprising of fast and slow lines, with fast lines being 110mph. Freights have run on these fast tracks many times and have gone faster than 75 - 90mph at least I'd say.

The only trains that don't carry passengers and travel faster than 75mph are Royal Mail Class 1 postals or ECS movements. Container wagons are limited to 75mph regardless of the linespeed.

 

[D365]

All of these questions are beyond the 'speculative/suggestion' stage and would have to be looked at if something like this was to be attempted.

Questions that have to be considered in order to determine whether speculative ideas are actually viable.

 

[Philip]

Questions that have to be considered in order to determine whether speculative ideas are actually viable.

If DfT wanted to push through the idea of mixed traffic trains, they would get it done. And from a literal concept it's quite straightforward - shunt either an EMU or some coaching stock into an empty platform or siding, then couple it up to the wagons of a working freight and off you go.

 

[YorksLad12]

Why not? Because parcels go to a distribution centre and are then loaded into a van and delivered. What you are suggesting is go to a distribution centre, load into a van, deliver to a railway station, load onto a train, take to another railway station, load into another van and then deliver.

How is your suggestion cheaper, quicker or more efficient than the existing process?

No, what I'm suggesting is a small parcels service to places that are easier to reach by rail than road. Admittedly, the OP was talking about duel-use passenger-freight services, which is a different thing and would require some sort of distribution centre (as opposed to a white van pulling up at a main station with good for onward travel, which is what I'm suggesting).

 

[zwk500]

If DfT wanted to push through the idea of mixed traffic trains, they would get it done.

Potentially, but why would they fight so hard for a terrible solution?

And from a literal concept it's quite straightforward - shunt either an EMU or some coaching stock into an empty platform or siding, then couple it up to the wagons of a working freight and off you go.

This is not a straightforward operation on today's railway. The staff aren't just hanging around in the breakout room spare, and EMUs and LHCS (dellners and small knuckles) don't necessarily have common couplings with freight wagons (big knuckles or buffer-and-chain).

 

[Bertie the bus]

If DfT wanted to push through the idea of mixed traffic trains, they would get it done.

Of course they would but as it is an absolutely ludicrous idea they haven't.

No, what I'm suggesting is a small parcels service to places that are easier to reach by rail than road. Admittedly, the OP was talking about duel-use passenger-freight services, which is a different thing and would require some sort of distribution centre (as opposed to a white van pulling up at a main station with good for onward travel, which is what I'm suggesting).

Well, that would be about £10 per day additional revenue for the railway then. Hardly worth converting passenger stock to carry parcels for places that are easier to reach by rail than road.

 

[D365]

And from a literal concept it's quite straightforward - shunt either an EMU or some coaching stock into an empty platform or siding, then couple it up to the wagons of a working freight and off you go.

Concept =/= reality.

 

[telstarbox]

Also £70 for a hotel isn't that expensive to most people. £100 isn't even expensive if your work is paying for it.

 

[43096]

Really?

Just because freight uses the 'fast lines' does not mean it can run at a higher speed.

The fastest conventional freight trains are Freightliners (Class 4) which can run at 75mph. Any other freight runs slower than that.

The only way to get around that is to use adapted passenger/parcels stock for freight which has been trialled very briefly but has not been adopted nationwide.

Didn't BR (Railfreight Distribution) run some 90mph freights using Megafrets hired from SNCF way back hauled by Class 90s way back?

 

[6Gman]

If DfT wanted to push through the idea of mixed traffic trains, they would get it done. And from a literal concept it's quite straightforward - shunt either an EMU or some coaching stock into an empty platform or siding, then couple it up to the wagons of a working freight and off you go.

But if the freight train is running from Felixstowe Harbour to Ditton where do you attach/detach the coaching stock and where do the passengers board and alight?

 

[12LDA28C]

And from a literal concept it's quite straightforward - shunt either an EMU or some coaching stock into an empty platform or siding, then couple it up to the wagons of a working freight and off you go.

It's not remotely straightforward. Even the most basic understanding of how the modern railway works should tell you that.