Could 'dual-purpose' trains work?

[Philip]

In relation to the thread about early last services between London and the North West, in part to allow paths for freight trains up the WCML, I was wondering if the idea of dual-use freight-passenger trains has ever been floated and whether it could work now with the stock currently in use?

For example if a freight was being transported from the South Coast to Trafford Park overnight, the train could run into London Euston and couple up with some passenger coaching stock, before making it's way north and dropping the coaches at Manchester Picc before continuing with the wagons to the freight terminal.

Has this sort of thing been done before? I guess it wouldn't be practical during the day because the amount of shuffling around would be impractical against the timetable, but as a means to provide more overnight long distance services, could it work?

 

[hexagon789]

In relation to the thread about early last services between London and the North West, in part to allow paths for freight trains up the WCML, I was wondering if the idea of dual-use freight-passenger trains has ever been floated and whether it could work now with the stock currently in use?

For example if a freight was being transported from the South Coast to Trafford Park overnight, the train could run into London Euston and couple up with some passenger coaching stock, before making it's way north and dropping the coaches at Manchester Picc before continuing with the wagons to the freight terminal.

Has this sort of thing been done before? I guess it wouldn't be practical during the day because the amount of shuffling around would be impractical against the timetable, but as a means to provide more overnight long distance services, could it work?

Most of the BR Second Generation DMUs and some EMUs had a lockable parcels/mail compartment that could be used as seating when not required for parcels.

 

[zwk500]

There did used to be mixed-traffic trains in steam days, but outside of a few edge cases it wouldn't work in today's railway, as passenger trains are nearly all Multiple Unit. Also freight wagons are restricted to 75mph and passenger trains can go up to 125mph.
The volume of freight traffic between Southampton and Manchester makes unit-train operation viable, and the volume of intercity passengers between London and Manchester fills a full length IC train. There'd be zero benefit to merging them.
IIRC there have been trials of mixed-traffic trains to/from Inverness but that's about the only place it might make sense.

For mixed-traffic to be a sensible option you would essentially need the volume of freight and passenger together to add up to less than 100% of the engine/unit and infrastructure capacity you're using. Stuff like mail and parcels in a passenger unit is easy enough but wouldn't really count as 'mixed use'. But if you wanted to strap containers on the back of a Pendo (as you're suggesting) then it gets very complicated. You'd need stronger couplings, wouldn't be able to reverse, would need to shunt the wagons onto the buffers ahead of the pendo arriving (taking up platform length), and have a loco ready at Manchester to drop on the back of the wagons and take them away.

 

[Philip]

There did used to be mixed-traffic trains in steam days, but outside of a few edge cases it wouldn't work in today's railway, as passenger trains are nearly all Multiple Unit. Also freight wagons are restricted to 75mph and passenger trains can go up to 125mph.
The volume of freight traffic between Southampton and Manchester makes unit-train operation viable, and the volume of intercity passengers between London and Manchester fills a full length IC train. There'd be zero benefit to merging them.
IIRC there have been trials of mixed-traffic trains to/from Inverness but that's about the only place it might make sense.

Rather than integrating the idea into the standard passenger timetable, I was thinking more a case of 'tag a few mk3s or whichever onto this freight train in the London terminal station' to provide a means to travel by rail from London to Manchester/Liverpool/Leeds/Sheffield/Birmingham/ Cardiff in the early hours of the morning, as currently the option isn't really there. Obviously the 'freight with passenger accommodation' would need a pre-booked path and to be timetabled in advance, but not as part of the existing passenger timetable which runs during the day.

 

[Bertie the bus]

There were mixed passenger/freight trains on the Far North line from Inverness as late as the mid-1980s but the idea of an intermodal from Southampton running to Euston and picking up a few carriages to go to Manchester is one of the most bizarre suggestions I have seen on this forum. And there have been some really bizarre ones.

 

[zwk500]

Rather than integrating the idea into the standard passenger timetable, I was thinking more a case of 'tag a few mk3s or whichever onto this freight train in the London terminal station' to provide a means to travel by rail from London to Manchester/Liverpool/Leeds/Birmingham/Cardiff in the early hours of the morning, as currently the option isn't really there.

Is the market there?

The closest I could see to your idea ever happening would be to couple a 4-car EMU to a 8-car 325 set. It can board at Wembley Central or Finsbury Park at god knows what o'clock, and drop the passenger unit off at a convenient major station like Crewe or York for first trains to Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds/etc.

 

[Philip]

Is the market there?

Absolutely. An option like this of overnight rail travel between London and long distance destinations could tap into existing air and coach markets. It might sound quirky, but it'd still be a means of transport.

Why Wembley Central and Crewe? Euston and Piccadilly/Lime Street/Leeds are not that busy with train movements in the early hours, so surely there'd be space and time for a bit of shuffling around?

 

[JonathanH]

An option like this of overnight rail travel between London and long distance destinations could tap into existing air and coach markets.

Why does the railway need to "tap into" coach markets? What is wrong with passengers using coaches?

Coach travel overnight is much more fit for purpose than rail travel because of route flexibility, cost of provision, lighting and passenger safety.

Rail travel has by far the upper hand for daytime travel because of demand, speed and efficiency.

 

[randyrippley]

Sounds like an attempt to reinvent the paper trains. Unfortunately there's no papers to carry...........

 

[Philip]

Why does the railway need to "tap into" coach markets? What is wrong with passengers using coaches?

Coach travel overnight is much more fit for purpose than rail travel because of route flexibility, cost of provision, lighting and passenger safety.

Rail travel has by far the upper hand for daytime travel because of demand, speed and efficiency.

Coaches for long distance are a secondary option to rail travel, which should be the principal transport option for domestic long distance journeys because of the lack of pollution (if it's an electric train), capacity and speed. A coach puts out more fumes, can carry much less people and is much slower than the train; if there is a way to draw passengers from the coach to the train for overnight journeys (with good value pricing) then why shouldn't it be explored?

 

[zwk500]

Absolutely. An option like this of overnight rail travel between London and long distance destinations could tap into existing air and coach markets. It might sound quirky, but it'd still be a means of transport.

But how many people are actually making this journey, and wouldn't just wait for the 0600 Pendolino instead?

Why Wembley Central and Crewe? Euston and Piccadilly/Lime Street/Leeds are not that busy with train movements in the early hours, so surely there'd be space and time for a bit of shuffling around?

Because using another driver would kill the finances. The mail train run from the PRDC at Wembley Yard to Warrington and Shieldmuir (south of Motherwell) on the WCML and Low Fell near Newcastle on the ECML. The stations you drpo the unit off en-route at need to be as near as possible to the mail route to keep the mail circuits on time.

Coaches for long distance are a secondary option to rail travel, which should be the principal transport option for domestic long distance journeys because of the lack of pollution (if it's an electric train), capacity and speed. A coach puts out more fumes, can carry much less people and is much slower than the train; if there is a way to draw passengers from the coach to the train for overnight journeys (with good value pricing) then why shouldn't it be explored?

Because a coach is more efficient if it's only carrying 40 people and it can get to where passengers want, rather than just to a train station.

The operational faff required to make the service attractive to passengers just isn't worth the costs it incurs. The mail justifies 12-car trains on it's own, just as other freight justifies full-length consists for their traffics. There simply isn't the low enough volume of traffic to make combined trains practical while being high enough to make them worthwhile.

 

[JonathanH]

Coaches for long distance are a secondary option to rail travel,

I agree with you.

which should be the principal transport option for domestic long distance journeys because of the lack of pollution (if it's an electric train), capacity and speed

Again, I agree with you.

A coach puts out more fumes, can carry much less people and is much slower than the train

The fact that fewer people are carried, and the speed aren't issues overnight. Fumes per passenger mile aren't as far apart as you are implying, particularly if we can get electric coaches soon.

if there is a way to draw passengers from the coach to the train for overnight journeys (with good value pricing) then why shouldn't it be explored?

The market simply isn't worth the railway chasing. The passenger demand and 'good value pricing' simply aren't compatible with the operational cost of running passenger trains overnight.

I have explained why personally I am more comfortable on a night coach than a 'day train' running at night. Most people don't travel overnight at all.

 

[Mikey C]

GWR used their HSTs to transport fresh fish to London, do they still do this with the IETs, which lack the separate guard's van area?

 

[172007]

Plenty of class 321's awaiting new work and apparently if another thread the leasing company is trying to find work for them.

Low cost operator down the WCML and ECML, 100mph path and bank a Veramis unit on the formation. Passenger and parcels together.

 

[Philip]

But how many people are actually making this journey, and wouldn't just wait for the 0600 Pendolino instead?

On this point, I can imagine overnight trains between London and far away major domestic cities would potentially hold a healthy number of passengers even at the quietest time of the night, because you'd also be catering for people coming in from abroad; either by Eurotunnel or by flying into Heathrow/Stanstead/Gatwick etc and wishing to continue their journey immediately rather than having to book into a hotel or wait hours for the first morning train. They only wait for that 6am Pendolino because there's no other option, but it's not ideal. If a freight-passenger train wouldn't be practical, how would something like a 3am triple Pendolino from Euston work with the sets splitting (and front set calling at) Birmingham for onward journeys to Manchester, Preston and Liverpool? Using the one path would minimize disruption to possessions and freight, whilst providing a convenient overnight service for people making these journeys who would otherwise have to wait/book a hotel or take a longer coach journey.

 

[Trainbike46]

On this point, I can imagine overnight trains between London and far away major domestic cities would potentially hold a healthy number of passengers even at the quietest time of the night, because you'd also be catering for people coming in from abroad; either by Eurotunnel or flying into Heathrow/Stanstead/Gatwick etc and wishing to continue their journey immediately rather than having to book into a hotel or wait hours for the first morning train. They only wait for that 6am Pendolino because there's no other option, but it's not ideal. If a freight-passenger train wouldn't practical, how would something like a 3am triple Pendolino from Euston work with the sets splitting (and front set calling at) Birmingham for onward journeys to Manchester, Preston and Liverpool? Using the one path would minimize disruption to possessions and freight, whilst providing a convenient overnight service for people making these journeys who would otherwise have to wait/book a hotel or take a longer coach journey.

Just to confirm, you are suggesting running three 9/11-car pendolinos in multiple? Would that even fit at Euston?

 

[zwk500]

On this point, I can imagine any overnight trains between London and far away major domestic cities would potentially hold a healthy number of passengers even at the quietest time of the night, because you'd also be catering for people coming in from abroad; either by Eurotunnel or flying into Heathrow/Stanstead/Gatwick etc and wishing to continue their journey immediately rather than having to book into a hotel or wait hours for the first morning train. They only wait for that 6am Pendolino because there's no other option, but it's not ideal.

You really are overestimating the number of people who would even consider continuing their journey at 2 in the morning. Stations aren't going to remain open until 4 in the morning for half a dozen people.

If a freight-passenger train wouldn't practical, how would something like a 3am triple Pendolino from Euston work with the sets splitting (and front set calling at) Birmingham for onward journeys to Manchester, Preston and Liverpool? Using the one path would minimize disruption to possessions and freight, whilst providing a convenient overnight service for people making these journeys who would otherwise have to wait/book a hotel or take a longer coach journey.

Much as I'd love to see a 27-car Pendo, there's no platform on the network it can use except on HS1. And there definitely isn't enough people wanting to travel at silly o'clock in the morning, nor will a TOC want to be paying drivers to pick the portions up at Crewe/Warrington

We've now gone into just running a 24-hour railway, which is a different question altogether. So, at least we've answered the original question with a firm 'NO'.

 

[Philip]

Just to confirm, you are suggesting running three 9/11-car pendolinos in multiple? Would that even fit at Euston?

Fair point, so use a couple of 350s then, but you can see the idea.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Mind you, a 27 car pendolino would give your passengers probably 2 coaches each, maybe 3.

 

[zwk500]

Fair point, so use a couple of 350s then, but you can see the idea.

Passengers are not going to be wooed out of a hotel and onto a 2am train if it's a 350 all the way to Preston, especially if it has to go via Liverpool or Manchester first.

But again, we're getting away from the original suggestion which was mixed traffic trains.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Passengers are not going to be wooed out of a hotel and onto a 2am train if it's a 350 all the way to Preston, especially if it has to go via Liverpool or Manchester first.

Oh, I don't know. Avanti could further promote their cut price 'Superfare' tickets, and then issue them just for these daft o'clock overnight services.

 

[tbtc]

Freight services are run as cheaply as possible, since they need to compete with other FOCs/ road hauliers etc.

Right or wrongly, that’s why we have single 66s running long distances under wires and trying to tackle Shap/ Beattock single handily rather than being doubled up or using an electric locomotive

Any plans that require an extra driver (even if only for a short section where a DMU/EMU runs from a station to the nearest marshalling yard) can probably be ignored - you’d probably end up having to pay them a chunky sum even if it is just a very short shift

For this to work you’d need:

1. A freight service guaranteed to run every weekday (or every week or every day or whatever, but it couldn’t be one off the many freight flows which have a path reserved in the timetable but only run when necessary)

2. Either a platform/ facilities at a freight terminal or a station with a long through platform where a freight train can sit for a while as passengers board/ alight (getting a platform built at somewhere like Mossend won’t be cheap, but then how many existing stations could cope with a long freight train occupying a through platform for a while?)

3. If your choice is to use an existing station platform then you’ve got that awkward balance of “at a time when the station is quiet enough to have a long freight train sit there” but also “during existing station opening hours” (since expecting station staff to hang around an extra couple of hours to ensure the station is staffed for your service is going to be a direct cost)

4. A long enough distance to make it worthwhile with a big enough market but also probably no current direct trains. If you’re taking an EMU/DMU then you’d want it to be staffed but that means the Guard’s wages have to be shared between the passengers- is the Guard going to need digs at the other end of the route? The economics of this thread suggest a long distance service but staffing hours need to be taken into consideration

5. Very few if any intermediate stops, given diversions

6. A freight flow profitable enough to exist but with a rake off wagons short enough for there to be room on the back for the DMU/ EMU to be attached

7. Nothing that the general public wouldn’t be allowed to go near (e.g. nuclear!). The people who’s cargo this is need to agree to their train being used for this after all

8. A decision to be made about the passenger stock… Are you wanting bespoke seating suited to people snoozing for a few hours (expensive) or just wanting to keep costs down (uncomfortable)… either way presumably the stock will only do one single journey a day… so do you have three sets to cover contingencies?

Based on the above, I can’t think of a flow in the UK that really suits the above.., you’d be trying to keep costs as low as possible whilst having specialist stock/staff, and that’s not going to be easy

 

[JonathanH]

Oh, I don't know. Avanti could further promote their cut price 'Superfare' tickets, and then issue them just for these daft o'clock overnight services.

They wouldn't make very much revenue if everyone was on 'Superfare' tickets.

In terms of the OP's idea, they basically envisage something like a single carriage offering Watford Junction to Manchester overnight on a train of containers going from Felixstowe to Trafford Park, rather than hooking up a Pendolino to the rear, delivered at what they consider to be little marginal cost.

Here is an example path
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H35307/2023-05-04/detailed

While it might offer interesting haulage opportunities for enthusiasts, I can't imagine too many people turning up at Watford Junction at 0025 for a 3.5 hour train to Manchester, nor Freightliner wanting the complication of transporting passengers.

 

[Philip]

They wouldn't make very much revenue if everyone was on 'Superfare' tickets.

In terms of the OP's idea, they basically envisage something like a single carriage offering Watford Junction to Manchester overnight on a train of containers going from Felixstowe to Trafford Park, rather than hooking up a Pendolino to the rear, delivered at what they consider to be little marginal cost.

Here is an example path
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H35307/2023-05-04/detailed

While it might offer interesting haulage opportunities for enthusiasts, I can't imagine too many people turning up at Watford Junction at 0025 for a 3.5 hour train to Manchester, nor Freightliner wanting the complication of transporting passengers.

This is indeed the idea, although perhaps with two or three coaches rather than just the one. This would at least reduce the costs compared with using a whole DMU/EMU, paying another driver and creating a new path.

I still think with good marketing and a cheap fare something like this could prove quite popular; I don't think the 3.5hr journey would deter passengers too much if it saved them £70 from booking a hotel, or saved them from camping out at Euston for 4 hours. You'd be catering for passengers coming in from abroad and for people who have had a proper evening out in London. If Avanti or LNWR officially looked after the passenger part of the train then Freightliner wouldn't have this complication.

 

[JonathanH]

I still think with good marketing and a cheap fare something like this could prove quite popular; I don't think the 3.5hr journey would deter passengers too much if it saved them £70 from booking a hotel, or saved them from camping out at Euston for 4 hours.

Why is this going to be cheap? It doesn't follow that just because something is overnight it can suddenly be offered cheap. The railway works best with volume, not niche, offerings.

Clearly camping out at Euston for four hours isn't desirable, but neither is arriving in Manchester at 4am.

The marketing wouldn't be cheap either.

What is the rolling stock going to be used for during the day?

 

[zwk500]

This is indeed the idea, although perhaps with two or three coaches rather than just the one. This would at least reduce the costs compared with using a whole DMU/EMU and creating a new path.

Loco-haul is more expensive than DMUs at short lengths.

I still think with good marketing and a cheap fare something like this could prove quite popular; I don't think the 3.5hr journey would deter passengers too much if it saved them £70 from booking a hotel, or saved them from camping out at Euston for 4 hours.

Euston closes overnight. People will either want to get back at a time that still allows some sleep, or take long enough that they can get a bit of rest on the train. 3.5hrs is the worst of both worlds. This is not going to be cheap, it's horrendously operationally inefficient.

You'd be catering for passengers coming in from abroad and for people who have had a proper evening out in London.

The number of people arriving by air wanting an onward connection to Manchester at 3am in the morning will be in Single figures per month. The number of people who finish a night out at 1am and haven't arranged to stay with a friend who are still in a fit state to board a train is nil.

If Avanti or LNWR officially looked after the passenger part of the train then Freightliner wouldn't have this complication.

Avanti and LNWR don't have a safety case for hauling freight. Freightliner would have to hire in the coaching stock and fit a 66 with ETS, if they even still have the safety case for passenger operations (they've done the odd railtour in the past).

In short, this is a mindlessly complicated way of providing a service that 1 very specific person will want a handful of times a year.

 

[D365]

Avanti and LNWR don't have a safety case for hauling freight. Freightliner would have to hire in the coaching stock and fit a 66 with ETS, if they even still have the safety case for passenger operations (they've done the odd railtour in the past).

In short, this is a mindlessly complicated way of providing a service that 1 very specific person will want a handful of times a year.

An easy summary here.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

We sometimes refer to unusual ideas as being a solution in search of a problem. This suggestion however is a huge complication in search of a non-existent problem. The geograpy of this country is such that few people regularly make seriously long journeys of the sort where overnight travel could be practical. In short the overwhelming majority of us simply avoid overnight travel. For those who feel it is necessary you may be sure that cost is a significant factor in their choice. I've just made a dummy booking for an overnight coach journey from London to Manchester in two weeks time. Depart 2330, arrive 0555, fare £22.50 one-way. Not a cat in hell's chance that a railway service, however it is provided, could match that.

And where is the market? Nobody plans to reach the north of England from Europe via London based on a late evening arrival into London. If a late start from the Continent is unavoidable they will simply fly direct; there are plenty of routes into Leeds, Liverpool and Manchester airports. As for domestic demand, try a spin along the southern end of the M6 overnight: it's wall-to-wall with HGVs with noticeably few private cars about

Overnight trains covering any distance in this country are largely pointless as there are better alternatives available for those flows that actually add up to anything. The only reason for coming up with this idea is the misguided thinking that says public transport should primarily be by rail and that trains should be available for just about every possible journey. Being pro-rail should not mean excluding other alternatives. Remember that overall more people travel by bus each day than by train, indeed for many the bus is the only form of timetabled public transport they ever use. Scheduled coach services definitely have a role to play.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The change to fixed formation units, even for post, has killed off any sensible way of running “mixed traffic” trains. In the old days it was easy enough to stick a passenger carriage on the back of a TPO or a newspaper train, so they did. But the postal service and newspaper delivery has moved away from the railway and so there aren’t the services running. It’s not like there’s a sensible way of putting a passenger carriage on the back of container freight trains which don’t go near city centres.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2023 ==

As for domestic demand, try a spin along the southern end of the M6 overnight: it's wall-to-wall with HGVs with noticeably few private cars about

In fairness, driving is different to travelling by train. Not least the ability to doze on the train.

 

[JKF]

What we actually need are containerised passengers, then they can hitch a ride between Wentloog and Daventry or similar destinations.