Could camper van conversions hurt rail usage?

[Ghostbus]

In my job I have noticed an astonishing number of people engaging in camper van conversions. I had lazily assumed this was a sign of the shift away from foreign to domestic holidays, for the well trodden reasons. But I am now wondering if there is something more to it? These vehicles are pretty small, typically only commercial vans, not something you would want to spend more than a night in. And the people doing it aren't exactly hard up. They've typically got the space for two cars and a van, for a start.

Are these the new threat to the future health of the railway? Are these things going to be used for what people might have previously used the train for? Short breaks, or even away days. You can get bikes in them, have a cuppa in them, and shelter from a storm in them. You can park them anywhere, including the car park of a Travelodge. They don't stop moving for the wrong kind of leaves, or melting rails, or cable thefts, or strikes, or engineering works. And of course, they have toilets. While nobody's first choice, it's incredible to realise, when you're out and about, how little this country cares about the provision of toilets.

I am deeply sceptical that the number of people in this country who actually want to holiday entirely in a camper van for a week or more has gone up by this much, and the actual number of pitches on sites with facilities for those who would use them that way, is surely not enough to cater for this extra demand either. Sales of proper campers and caravans who necessarily need these pitches, have surely also gone up. Being used for short trips, certainly longer than a typical public service holiday bus ride, with ad hoc but legal parking, is their only logical use that I can see. Coach travel away days and mini breaks are all about the craic and add ons, surely.

If so, it surely only hurts the railway, since the government still gets their taxes, the councils still get their charges, and the tourism industry still gets their punters. Traffic will go up, but what's new? If congestion alone benefited the railway, it would be in rude health.

 

[signed]

Most of those people living in vans are doing that because they think it's cheaper than paying a fixed rent. It's extremely delusional.

 

[Deepgreen]

The answer to your question is; yes, they could hurt rail travel but the impact is likely to be tiny. For all the problematic things about rail that you say they avoid, there are opposite things that are negative - traffic jams, the stress and fatigue of driving long distances, breakdowns, lack of spaces to park for the night (for example, I have noted that camper vans using some Scottish routes are provoking local anger) and so on.

 

[Vespa]

Scotland could learn something from France, they have L'aire de Service in villages and towns encouraging you to park overnight so that campers would buy provisions from the shops and eat in a cafe in the morning, you're not expected to stay more than two night.

While I don't have a camper van, I car camp by modifying my car into a micro camper for trips and then change it back into a normal car.

I still use trains if going into a town on park and rides, I don't think it affects trains as much as you think because the main breadwinner is commuters traffic and city to city leisure travel, most campers will be going to areas not served by the railways.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Motorhomes and campers definitely seem a lot more popular here in the Highlands but I can't see it being at the cost of rail because people are taking them to more rural areas that aren't served by rail.

 

[renegademaster]

I'd feel like it would more be hurting hotels.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2024 ==

L'aire de Service

Unfortunately I expect prejudice about Irish Travellers using them would kill off a proposal like that here.

 

[alxndr]

My father brought a camper conversion as an alternative to getting the train and hotel when he makes his monthly work trip. It was partly the price but more so the unreliability from the frequent strikes at the time.

He’s back to the railway now though as the van got written off while parked at the side of the road.

 

[yorksrob]

If it does take off as a hobby, I think it's more likely to affect the hotel/B&B trade than the railway. There are so many reasons people travel by train, camper vans won't make much impact.

 

[Ghostbus]

I can only repeat, these vans do not appear to be primarily for overnight camping, certainly not for more than a night.

They don't even look like campers, they're basically commercial vans with blacked out windows. No utility ports, chimneys, awnings, raising roofs, non standard windows, exterior compartment doors, or any of the things you would soon realise you need and want, if you have plans to stay multiple nights anywhere, but especially a camp site. All the conversion is interior.

They definite feel more suited to being alternative means of travel and a comfortable way to hang out during daylight hours when you get there. The fact you can sleep in it, is surely only a comfort on an emergency basis. So if anything, their threat is to coffee shops and cafes, not hotels or B&Bs, as well as their threat to railway revenue. But only an absolute miser would eschew every establishment on that basis.

Even if I had one of these vans and was out for a long weekend, I am not going to even attempt to sleep in some layby, having an uncomfortable night and risking a fine of worse, rather than pay for the superior comforts of a budget hotel (where I can park the van for free as a paying customer). I travel to enjoy the day, and the van exists to enhance that, as well as actually getting me there.

And as I said, I doubt there is much capacity on actual camp sites for these vans, given the increase in proper campers and caravans, so staying in budget hotels is probably already comparable in price. It's already the case that budget hotels have hoovered up any custom for hotels and B&Bs where there is absolutely no desire to pay extra for comfort or service, so the damage there is already done.

 

[Cowley]

I can only repeat, these vans do not appear to be primarily for overnight camping, certainly not for more than a night.

They don't even look like campers, they're basically commercial vans with blacked out windows. No utility ports, chimneys, awnings, raising roofs, non standard windows, exterior compartment doors, or any of the things you would soon realise you need and want, if you have plans to stay multiple nights anywhere, but especially a camp site. All the conversion is interior.

They definite feel more suited to being alternative means of travel and a comfortable way to hang out during daylight hours when you get there. The fact you can sleep in it, is surely only a comfort on an emergency basis. So if anything, their threat is to coffee shops and cafes, not hotels or B&Bs, as well as their threat to railway revenue. But only an absolute miser would eschew every establishment on that basis.

Even if I had one of these vans and was out for a long weekend, I am not going to even attempt to sleep in some layby, having an uncomfortable night and risking a fine of worse, rather than pay for the superior comforts of a budget hotel (where I can park the van for free as a paying customer). I travel to enjoy the day, and the van exists to enhance that, as well as actually getting me there.

And as I said, I doubt there is much capacity on actual camp sites for these vans, given the increase in proper campers and caravans, so staying in budget hotels is probably already comparable in price. It's already the case that budget hotels have hoovered up any custom for hotels and B&Bs where there is absolutely no desire to pay extra for comfort or service, so the damage there is already done.

Being an owner of a van similar to what I think you’re describing, I’m really struggling to understand what points you’re trying to make here but I’ll try and cover a few of them.

People own partially converted vans for a variety of reasons. They might include:

• Wanting to use it for carrying work tools as well as using it for leisure at the weekends.
• Using it to transport children and large amounts of camping gear.
• Using as somewhere to sit comfortably and have lunch while out on site on a job.
• Using it as a kombi because it might have 6 seats but still have plenty of room for luggage.
• Using it for the occasional nights sleep if you were camping or at a music festival.
• Using it to cart around surfing/windsurfing gear and having somewhere to get changed.
• Using it to move furniture whenever your kids go to and from university/move house etc.

I could go on…
I’ve used ours for all of the above reasons just in the last couple of years and I’ve always had some form of van over the thirty plus years I’ve been driving. We also have a more economical car which we use for most of our trips however.

The thing about modern vans is that they’re much more refined than they used to be and generally more economical too, so having one as a second vehicle when they do all of the above makes a lot of sense.

When our kids were young we had a much larger van which was converted with extra windows, seats and beds etc. Obviously we didn’t live in it but we took it all over Europe because it was by far and away the cheapest way of taking them on decent holidays, even if we rented somewhere to stay once we’d got there.

There are also a lot of people living in vehicles these days, especially around Bristol for example, but that’s a different thing and I can entirely understand why people do it when you look at rental costs around there. Quite often they tend to find a spot and stay in it long term. Again that’s quite understandable if you’re working and need some stability.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I can only repeat, these vans do not appear to be primarily for overnight camping, certainly not for more than a night.

They don't even look like campers, they're basically commercial vans with blacked out windows. No utility ports, chimneys, awnings, raising roofs, non standard windows, exterior compartment doors, or any of the things you would soon realise you need and want, if you have plans to stay multiple nights anywhere, but especially a camp site. All the conversion is interior.

They definite feel more suited to being alternative means of travel and a comfortable way to hang out during daylight hours when you get there. The fact you can sleep in it, is surely only a comfort on an emergency basis. So if anything, their threat is to coffee shops and cafes, not hotels or B&Bs, as well as their threat to railway revenue. But only an absolute miser would eschew every establishment on that basis.

Even if I had one of these vans and was out for a long weekend, I am not going to even attempt to sleep in some layby, having an uncomfortable night and risking a fine of worse, rather than pay for the superior comforts of a budget hotel (where I can park the van for free as a paying customer). I travel to enjoy the day, and the van exists to enhance that, as well as actually getting me there.

And as I said, I doubt there is much capacity on actual camp sites for these vans, given the increase in proper campers and caravans, so staying in budget hotels is probably already comparable in price. It's already the case that budget hotels have hoovered up any custom for hotels and B&Bs where there is absolutely no desire to pay extra for comfort or service, so the damage there is already done.

People camp in tents. Many do so for several nights. These vans are essentially a step up from that - a slightly more weatherproof accommodation, raised bed, less setup/packing etc. Essentially just drive away and go. Pretty much all the things you listed as "missing" are also missing from a tent.

The world of camping and caravaning is vast, ranging from absolute bare bones to all mod cons (and the rest!). There is absolutely loads of capacity, across the country, on campsites and caravan sites. I'd even go as far as suggesting that the people using these kinda of vans are actually more likely to be spending their money in local cafes and coffee shops when on their travels.

 

[PeterC]

I know several people with conversions like these. All are either regular performers or customers at small weekend music festivals.

 

[Cowley]

People camp in tents. Many do so for several nights. These vans are essentially a step up from that - a slightly more weatherproof accommodation, raised bed, less setup/packing etc. Essentially just drive away and go. Pretty much all the things you listed as "missing" are also missing from a tent.

Yes exactly. Just don’t forget to put the coffee pot away before you drive off!

The world of camping and caravaning is vast, ranging from absolute bare bones to all mod cons (and the rest!). There is absolutely loads of capacity, across the country, on campsites and caravan sites. I'd even go as far as suggesting that the people using these kinda of vans are actually more likely to be spending their money in local cafes and coffee shops when on their travels.

We’re away for a week at the moment and it’ll be a few nights in the van, a couple of nights in a shepherds hut and a couple of nights in a hotel. The nights in the van won’t cost us anything and if you find a nice pub and say that you’ll have dinner there and a few drinks they’re often quite happy for you to stay in a tucked away corner of their carpark.
We’ve done this loads of times and everyone wins in that situation.

 

[DarloRich]

There is some nonsense in this thread! We are on our second van. We wouldn't dream of a travel lodge now unless it could be avoided.

not something you would want to spend more than a night in.

Really? have you ever been in one? I suspect not based on your comments. We can do 2 people for 5 days off grid before, erm, waste capacity becomes a problem. We aim for 3 days max off grid to allow some contingency in the tank!

The longest trip we have done (in the old van) was 10 days in Scotland - that was getting a bit hardcore smell wise but I suspect in the new van we could easily do 14 days

Are these the new threat to the future health of the railway?

how?

Sales of proper campers and caravans who necessarily need these pitches, have surely also gone up. Being used for short trips, certainly longer than a typical public service holiday bus ride, with ad hoc but legal parking, is their only logical use that I can see.

what are you on about? Camper sales of all types HAVE gone up, especially after COVID. Give it a year or two and i suspect there will be high quality bargains to be had second hand. Also you don't need a pitch. The beauty is you go where you want AND/OR use a site when you want the facilities.

BTW: Is our van "proper"? We bought a second hand van and had it converted. Should we not have done that? We didn't do it ourselves because:

1. I don't have the skills
2. I don't have the patience
3. I don't want dumping when I cut the window hole wrong
4. I don't want to die from carbon monoxide poisoning because i wire the boiler up wrong!

and we couldn't afford £100K+ for one of a manufacturer that met our standards !

They don't even look like campers, they're basically commercial vans with blacked out windows. No utility ports, chimneys, awnings, raising roofs, non standard windows, exterior compartment doors, or any of the things you would soon realise you need and want, if you have plans to stay multiple nights anywhere, but especially a camp site. All the conversion is interior.

Have you thought people might be trying to do things on a budget? I know several people who are doing up a van but they are having to do it bit by bit as money allows. They will have some fancy windows in when they can afford it!

There ARE people who do "stealth" camping. They haven't changed the van exterior for this very reasons ( i know a couple who do that) but they are in the minority

I am not going to even attempt to sleep in some layby, having an uncomfortable night and risking a fine of worse, rather than pay for the superior comforts of a budget hotel

You have never been in a such van have you? The bed in my van is a super king, with a lovely mattress and is almost as comfortable as my bed at home! The bed is certainly better than some grotty travel lodge!

I HAVE slept in laybys but try to avoid it. There are so many better places you can use as @Cowley points out many pubs/ farm shops a re part of schemes encouraging you to use thier car parks. Some will even offer you facilities.

There is never a shortage of campsites. You might not get on the full camping and caravan club own sites but you will get on a perfectly good one down the way. There is such a variety of sites from literally a field to ones with dry cleaners and automatic toilet cassette emptiers in them! ( obviously you pay for quality!)

Being an owner of a van similar to what I think you’re describing, I’m really struggling to understand what points you’re trying to make here but I’ll try and cover a few of them.

Agreed - and you are more polite than me!

People own partially converted vans for a variety of reasons. They might include:

• Wanting to use it for carrying work tools as well as using it for leisure at the weekends.
• Using it to transport children and large amounts of camping gear.
• Using as somewhere to sit comfortably and have lunch while out on site on a job.
• Using it as a kombi because it might have 6 seats but still have plenty of room for luggage.
• Using it for the occasional nights sleep if you were camping or at a music festival.
• Using it to cart around surfing/windsurfing gear and having somewhere to get changed.
• Using it to move furniture whenever your kids go to and from university/move house etc.

You get all types. I think the OP is fixated on the "day van" type that really isn't indicative of the whole market - that is about going out for the day with your bike and dog and having the ability to kip in the van if you want to.

I could go on…
I’ve used ours for all of the above reasons just in the last couple of years and I’ve always had some form of van over the thirty plus years I’ve been driving. We also have a more economical car which we use for most of our trips however.

We use ours for pottering about the country looking at stuff. We stay all over.

The thing about modern vans is that they’re much more refined than they used to be and generally more economical too, so having one as a second vehicle when they do all of the above makes a lot of sense.

Agreed - especially when you spec the interior your self!

We have toilet, shower ( internal and external) gas and electric heating & hot water, permanent bed, microwave, gas & electric hob, solar (for off grid)

When our kids were young we had a much larger van which was converted with extra windows, seats and beds etc. Obviously we didn’t live in it but we took it all over Europe because it was by far and away the cheapest way of taking them on decent holidays, even if we rented somewhere to stay once we’d got there.

We haven't been to Europe yet - confidence thing for the boss plus COVID and van change issues - but have been all over the UK

There are also a lot of people living in vehicles these days, especially around Bristol for example, but that’s a different thing and I can entirely understand why people do it when you look at rental costs around there. Quite often they tend to find a spot and stay in it long term. Again that’s quite understandable if you’re working and need some stability.

I wouldn't want to live in the van permanently but I could subject to being able to get water and gas and empty the tanks

I'd even go as far as suggesting that the people using these kinda of vans are actually more likely to be spending their money in local cafes and coffee shops when on their travels.

Correct - and the local preserved railway

Scotland could learn something from France, they have L'aire de Service in villages and towns encouraging you to park overnight so that campers would buy provisions from the shops and eat in a cafe in the morning, you're not expected to stay more than two night.

We don't have many "aires" in this country but there are plenty of schemes for places offering overnight accommodation, perhaps in exchange for buying a few pints or having a meal. We stay in these places often.

We have only had maybe 2 pubs turn us down. We are completely self contained and as long as one of us is fit to drive in the morning ( a few times we haven't been!) we are gone before they know about it

Motorhomes and campers definitely seem a lot more popular here in the Highlands

They are and something like the North Coast 500 is now mental. I am glad we did it when we did before COVID as it was really peaceful. The volume is becoming a problem because vans are getting bigger and the roads aren't!

Scarborough have recently banned campervans from parking up overnight on Marine drive which is sad but unavoidable because it was SO busy and not everyone knows how to behave sadly.

We’re away for a week at the moment and it’ll be a few nights in the van, a couple of nights in a shepherds hut and a couple of nights in a hotel.

With the new van we have done a lot more "off grid" camping mainly because the new van is better laid out, is more practical and comfortable and has better batteries! We can decide on a Friday to go away for the weekend, pick somewhere on the map and disappear. Wonderful.

It's extremely delusional.

is that right? I am not sure I agree. I wouldn't want to do it personally but it would be a hell of a lot cheaper than a mortgage, council tax and all the rest!

 

[Ghostbus]

OK, I'll have one more stab at this and then give up if people still don't get what I'm on about.

In my job, I travel extensively around all manner of residential areas. I have noticed, only this year, a massive increase in the number of bog standard commercial vans being worked on, solely on interiors. Some are second hand, many are new or rarely used.

These people are not poor, they aren't working to a budget. They are rich enough to have space in a cul-de-sac to work on a van and own at least two cars. Nothing parked on the grass or street. I've seen contractors and DIY.

I obviously don't poke around inside (a couple have let me have a quick look), but I'm fairly confident none has a fixed bed of any size, let alone King. Nor do they have a shower, solar panels, or more than one way to cook food.

I'd say they have a toilet, fridge, hob, cupboards, and either a double or twin beds that can be converted from seats.

The mobile tent theory is compelling but not perfect. These people clearly have the time and money to invest in a seriously good tent and camping equipment. If they're too lazy to put a tent up or lug camping equipment from the boot of their SUV five yards, how come they've got the time and the energy to convert a van? Keep it stocked and serviced, taxed and polished.

These people could easily afford a proper camper van if they were this lazy, especially if (apparently) sites are readily available. Buy it new, second hand, or even do a full conversion on their standard van, adding utility ports, awnings, hatches, raising roofs, solar panels, the lot. But they aren't.

I do see people doing proper conversions, but for every one of those, there are ten of these.......things.

I say they're day vans. For sleeping in as a last resort or occasional night away. For trips not requiring a week's worth of food and water. For people who aren't mad obsessed about camping, wild or otherwise, but do want what go places and see things. And when they're there, have somewhere to relax and have a brew.

For trips you might well take by train, multiple times a year. Day trips and weekends away. The people who can afford that. And will then spend all day in cafes and restaurants if the weather's bad. And even those who can't, unless they scrimp on the accommodation and go budget.

I do that. A day van is very tempting.

I could quite happily sleep for a fortnight in a tent, if I had access to facilities. I would never restrict my freedom to pitch my tent wherever I wanted, merely for a raised bed and better weather protection.

 

[Cowley]

OK, I'll have one more stab at this and then give up if people still don't get what I'm on about.

In my job, I travel extensively around all manner of residential areas. I have noticed, only this year, a massive increase in the number of bog standard commercial vans being worked on, solely on interiors. Some are second hand, many are new or rarely used.

These people are not poor, they aren't working to a budget. They are rich enough to have space in a cul-de-sac to work on a van and own at least two cars. Nothing parked on the grass or street. I've seen contractors and DIY.

I obviously don't poke around inside (a couple have let me have a quick look), but I'm fairly confident none has a fixed bed of any size, let alone King. Nor do they have a shower, solar panels, or more than one way to cook food.

I'd say they have a toilet, fridge, hob, cupboards, and either a double or twin beds that can be converted from seats.

The mobile tent theory is compelling but not perfect. These people clearly have the time and money to invest in a seriously good tent and camping equipment. If they're too lazy to put a tent up or lug camping equipment from the boot of their SUV five yards, how come they've got the time and the energy to convert a van? Keep it stocked and serviced, taxed and polished.

These people could easily afford a proper camper van if they were this lazy, especially if (apparently) sites are readily available. Buy it new, second hand, or even do a full conversion on their standard van, adding utility ports, awnings, hatches, raising roofs, solar panels, the lot. But they aren't.

I do see people doing proper conversions, but for every one of those, there are ten of these.......things.

I say they're day vans. For sleeping in as a last resort or occasional night away. For trips not requiring a week's worth of food and water. For people who aren't mad obsessed about camping, wild or otherwise, but do want what go places and see things. And when they're there, have somewhere to relax and have a brew.

For trips you might well take by train, multiple times a year. Day trips and weekends away. The people who can afford that. And will then spend all day in cafes and restaurants if the weather's bad. And even those who can't, unless they scrimp on the accommodation and go budget.

I do that. A day van is very tempting.

I could quite happily sleep for a fortnight in a tent, if I had access to facilities. I would never restrict my freedom to pitch my tent wherever I wanted, merely for a raised bed and better weather protection.

Ok, let have another go at making sense of this.

Are you saying that you’ve got a problem with it and if so then what exactly is the problem you have with it?

Or is it just an observation of something that you find interesting and wish to discuss/learn about?

 

[DarloRich]

OK, I'll have one more stab at this and then give up if people still don't get what I'm on about.

no idea what you are on about - i fear a complete misunderstanding of what you think you are seeing and the cost of the activities you are commenting on.

perhaps answering @Cowley questions might help us understand further.

 

[Lewisham2221]

OK, I'll have one more stab at this and then give up if people still don't get what I'm on about.

Without meaning to sound rude, I think it's you that doesn't know what you're on about.

In my job, I travel extensively around all manner of residential areas. I have noticed, only this year, a massive increase in the number of bog standard commercial vans being worked on, solely on interiors. Some are second hand, many are new or rarely used.

These people are not poor, they aren't working to a budget. They are rich enough to have space in a cul-de-sac to work on a van and own at least two cars. Nothing parked on the grass or street. I've seen contractors and DIY.

Just because somebody already owns/rents a house and owns a couple of cars, does not mean that they have unlimited funds...

I obviously don't poke around inside (a couple have let me have a quick look), but I'm fairly confident none has a fixed bed of any size, let alone King. Nor do they have a shower, solar panels, or more than one way to cook food.

Your point being? These people aren't living in the vans, as you've already pointed out, they have houses. Even very basic campsites have toilet and shower facilities. Solar panels might be a "nice to have" but they certainly aren't anywhere near a necessity - many campsites offer electric hookups. Why does there need to be more than one way to cook food? Hob for frying some bacon/sausages/eggs in the morning, lunch whilst out and about during the day, tea at the local pub - or a barbecue outside the van. Even purpose built campervan, motorhomes and touring caravans usually have beds which convert from seating.

I'd say they have a toilet, fridge, hob, cupboards, and either a double or twin beds that can be converted from seats.

Sounds perfectly adequate. This summer I did a 3-night camping trip, in a tent, with none of the above. Camping mat & sleeping bag for a bed, toilet and shower block on the campsite, plenty of local pubs and cafes to get food from.

The mobile tent theory is compelling but not perfect. These people clearly have the time and money to invest in a seriously good tent and camping equipment. If they're too lazy to put a tent up or lug camping equipment from the boot of their SUV five yards, how come they've got the time and the energy to convert a van? Keep it stocked and serviced, taxed and polished.

Because you can leave most of your stuff in the van. Grab an early finish at work on Friday, jump straight in the van and be at your chosen campsite by teatime. Minimal setup, minimal fuss. Similar minimal level of fuss when leaving, drive home Sunday afternoon. No concern about whether your tent was wet when you packed it away. Essentially park the van back on the driveway and forget about it until next time.

These people could easily afford a proper camper van if they were this lazy, especially if (apparently) sites are readily available. Buy it new, second hand, or even do a full conversion on their standard van, adding utility ports, awnings, hatches, raising roofs, solar panels, the lot. But they aren't.

No, they couldn't. Have you seen the price of purpose built motorhomes???

I do see people doing proper conversions, but for every one of those, there are ten of these.......things.

I say they're day vans. For sleeping in as a last resort or occasional night away. For trips not requiring a week's worth of food and water. For people who aren't mad obsessed about camping, wild or otherwise, but do want what go places and see things. And when they're there, have somewhere to relax and have a brew.

For trips you might well take by train, multiple times a year. Day trips and weekends away. The people who can afford that. And will then spend all day in cafes and restaurants if the weather's bad. And even those who can't, unless they scrimp on the accommodation and go budget.

What???

I wouldn't catch the train from Staffordshire to/from the North Wales coast for 5 consecutive days. That would be madness. I would drive one of these "things" from Staffordshire to North Wales campsite on a Monday. I would then use the train (and/or bus) to travel around North Wales for the next few days, making use of the campsite facilities to wash etc, and spending my money in local shops, pubs and cafes to eat and drink.

I could quite happily sleep for a fortnight in a tent, if I had access to facilities. I would never restrict my freedom to pitch my tent wherever I wanted, merely for a raised bed and better weather protection.

Erm... Yeah... You can't actually just pitch a tent wherever you want...

I'm genuinely puzzled at how you could happily sleep in a tent with access to facilities, but a converted van - with access to the exact same facilities - is somehow only suitable for one night, and that being on an emergency basis at that.

 

[Ghostbus]

Ok, let have another go at making sense of this.

Are you saying that you’ve got a problem with it and if so then what exactly is the problem you have with it?

Or is it just an observation of something that you find interesting and wish to discuss/learn about?

I'm not saying either.

It is my contention that there is a very recent phenomenon of comfortably well off people investing in pretty basic (but not necessarily budget) van conversions to create what I am convinced are primarily going to be used as day vans (day trips or mini breaks, not long term camping trips), and this might harm the railway.

I think I've already seen the phenomena in the wild, as these things pop up in car parks at or near leisure destinations where they didn't used to appear (in noticeable numbers) as recently as 2023. Places that are already easily accessible by rail, and most definitely do not permit overnight parking.

It is exactly what I would use such a thing for, in many cases instead of travelling by train with a day case. I may or may not still use a Travelodge in such a scenario, but the fact such a van can be slept in, is not remotely why I would get one. As such, I contend this is something more than just, "people use vans for lots of things, and maybe more than they used to, because 2020s".

But since this thread has got so far off the original attempted purpose for reasons I cannot fathom one bit, and in the process has become so insulting to me (as if I really didn't know where you can pitch a tent, or how much the cheapest proper camper van costs, or what a family with three cars and four bedrooms can probably spare on a long term leisure investment in 2024!), I'm happy to let them believe whatever they want.

 

[Peter Sarf]

To answer the question posed in the thread title - NO.
I do not think it will affect train travel because I think most of the uses for a campervan however simple that converstion is would not have been achieved by rail.

OK, I'll have one more stab at this and then give up if people still don't get what I'm on about.

In my job, I travel extensively around all manner of residential areas. I have noticed, only this year, a massive increase in the number of bog standard commercial vans being worked on, solely on interiors. Some are second hand, many are new or rarely used.

These people are not poor, they aren't working to a budget. They are rich enough to have space in a cul-de-sac to work on a van and own at least two cars. Nothing parked on the grass or street. I've seen contractors and DIY.

I obviously don't poke around inside (a couple have let me have a quick look), but I'm fairly confident none has a fixed bed of any size, let alone King. Nor do they have a shower, solar panels, or more than one way to cook food.

I'd say they have a toilet, fridge, hob, cupboards, and either a double or twin beds that can be converted from seats.

The mobile tent theory is compelling but not perfect. These people clearly have the time and money to invest in a seriously good tent and camping equipment. If they're too lazy to put a tent up or lug camping equipment from the boot of their SUV five yards, how come they've got the time and the energy to convert a van? Keep it stocked and serviced, taxed and polished.

Well - I have been going to music festival since 1983. At the age of 64 I am finding an airbed difficult to rise from. I am fed up with packing a car/van with camping equipment and unpacking it all at the end of the trip (usually four nights). So a van however basic is something I am considering.

Toilet facilities are already laid on and actually there is plenty of food available at festivals I am interested in.

These people could easily afford a proper camper van if they were this lazy, especially if (apparently) sites are readily available. Buy it new, second hand, or even do a full conversion on their standard van, adding utility ports, awnings, hatches, raising roofs, solar panels, the lot. But they aren't.

Well I cannot afford a full blown purpose built campervan. There will be plenty of people like me who are just stretching from a tent to a van.

I do see people doing proper conversions, but for every one of those, there are ten of these.......things.

I say they're day vans. For sleeping in as a last resort or occasional night away. For trips not requiring a week's worth of food and water. For people who aren't mad obsessed about camping, wild or otherwise, but do want what go places and see things. And when they're there, have somewhere to relax and have a brew.

The main festival I go to has all sorts of vans there. Some are just vans and others are at various levels of conversion.

For trips you might well take by train, multiple times a year. Day trips and weekends away. The people who can afford that. And will then spend all day in cafes and restaurants if the weather's bad. And even those who can't, unless they scrimp on the accommodation and go budget.

I do that. A day van is very tempting.

I could quite happily sleep for a fortnight in a tent, if I had access to facilities. I would never restrict my freedom to pitch my tent wherever I wanted, merely for a raised bed and better weather protection.

I want to avoid that low airbed and all the setting up.

I'm not saying either.

It is my contention that there is a very recent phenomenon of comfortably well off people investing in pretty basic (but not necessarily budget) van conversions to create what I am convinced are primarily going to be used as day vans (day trips or mini breaks, not long term camping trips), and this might harm the railway.

Referring to the festival I have visited every year since 1983. Back in the 1980s there were very few camper vans maybe none but some caravans. Steadily through the 90s more and more caravans and campervans. Now since 2015 I think the number of tents is outnumbered by campervans and caravans. We have seen the number of fields used for camping go from three small fields to four and then a vast field. This indicates to me how much more space the non-tent attendees are using.

I think I've already seen the phenomena in the wild, as these things pop up in car parks at or near leisure destinations where they didn't used to appear (in noticeable numbers) as recently as 2023. Places that are already easily accessible by rail, and most definitely do not permit overnight parking.

I could not get to the festivals I go to by rail. No station nearby and hopeless amounts of baggage. Will always be driving something.

It is exactly what I would use such a thing for, in many cases instead of travelling by train with a day case. I may or may not still use a Travelodge in such a scenario, but the fact such a van can be slept in, is not remotely why I would get one. As such, I contend this is something more than just, "people use vans for lots of things, and maybe more than they used to, because 2020s".

I see a lot of people using campervans etc as an alternative to a tent plus paraphernalia that would have otherwise to be conveyed by car.

But since this thread has got so far off the original attempted purpose for reasons I cannot fathom one bit, and in the process has become so insulting to me (as if I really didn't know where you can pitch a tent, or how much the cheapest proper camper van costs, or what a family with three cars and four bedrooms can probably spare on a long term leisure investment in 2024!), I'm happy to let them believe whatever they want.

There might be a number of people just creating a den for short trips out and about but the wealthy types probably drove there by car before.
Now there maybe a fashion to do such things but I can guess those people would never have used the train before.

There are people living in a van who cannot afford to rent. Was one last year staying in our road. If they already have a van or need a vehicle to get about then the van is a cost they already have to bear so it makes sense to make it liveable in. That does not necessarily mean a loo and shower.

So not much conversion required. Back in the 1990s myself and a friend travelled a few times on a week holiday in the UK using a hired campervan We never used the shower or loo in the van so as to make water etc last. We used public loos which were found in most supermarkets where we were buying supplies anyway. For a shower I well remember using a swimming pool shower (and swim) - I remember that because we got a parking ticket (forgot to check). We never had trouble finding places to park and sleep - one noisy layby which we moved on from. I think a pub or two that were happy to have our custom.

 

[bspahh]

There was a boom for campervans during and just after covid. More people wanted to use them, and there was some disruption for the manufacturers.That put up prices for professional conversions and for the parts, which means that the second hand prices for campervans also increased a lot.

At the moment, on Autotrader £20k gets you a 15-20 year old campervan, but for ~£50k, you can get a brand new one, with fewer than 500 miles. I'm not sure that either is a bargain, but it is a quite a contrast.

Meanwhile ULEZ emission control rules meant that a lot of vans with a Euro 5 diesel engine came onto the market, so there was a good supply of cheap vans for a DIY conversion.

 

[DarloRich]

This is our van:

Hastings by MK Darlo, on Flickr

Hastings by MK Darlo, on Flickr

Hastings by MK Darlo, on Flickr

Hastings by MK Darlo, on Flickr[/URL]

 

[Peter Sarf]

This is our van: https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjB3j1d

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have you got a link? they are good prices!

Ohh the bed and the second row of seats !.

 

[DarloRich]

Ohh the bed and the second row of seats

no messing about Not making the bed every day is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO good! Seats all road legal

PS - i have no idea the final cost. The boss wont tell me! ( suspect budget shattered on something!) It is an L4/H3 Peugeot Boxer. Second hand from business use but in good nick and not used by a brickie or amazon!

 

[Harpo]

I once got very interested in a small European shunter on a low loader. Turned out I was looking at the wrong end as the rare tractor unit was the real star and the shunter ‘just’ a dummy load and camping unit. Damned clever one though.

 

[Cowley]

This is our van:

Hastings by MK Darlo, on Flickr

Hastings by MK Darlo, on Flickr

Hastings by MK Darlo, on Flickr

Hastings by MK Darlo, on Flickr[/URL]

That’s a great job they’ve done on the van. It’s a perfect size for longer trips away as well with the lounge area at the front. Love it.

I once got very interested in a small European shunter on a low loader. Turned out I was looking at the wrong end as the rare tractor unit was the real star and the shunter ‘just’ a dummy load and camping unit. Damned clever one though.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread I’ve always had some kind of van for sleeping in. This was my first one, this photo was taken in Scotland in about 1992 and I had that VW T2 for eight years in total, I was 18 when I got it!


It was actually my key to me being able to move out of my mothers house, I had various places around Exeter where I could park up for the night without being bothered and I also had a job in a group home for young people with learning disabilities so I was able to use the washing machine and shower there if I was doing a shift.

A few years after buying the VeeDub (This is turning into a bit of a life story) I decided that I wanted something a bit bigger if I was going to continue living that way and some friends up at the Mid Hants Railway, where I was spending quite a lot of my spare time, offered to sell me their old RAF Bedford Angus fire engine which I thought would make an excellent basis for a proper live in vehicle (please don’t ask me what I was smoking).
It looked like this:


Obviously it was a ridiculous idea (I was going to have the windows behind the shutters. Imagine that!) so I sold it on a couple of years later and moved into an actual house with walls and a roof…

Our previous van to the VW Transporter we’ve got now was this beast:


Squeezed onto a channel tunnel train and below, somewhere in Croatia:


We had the Sprinter for nine years and covered something like 120,000 miles in the old girl. Like Rich’s we paid for it to be part converted. Our need was more for seating and sleeping arrangements as there’s so many of us. I loved that van but it was very big and now that it’s just Mrs C and myself going away I’m very much enjoying having something small that we can get under car park height barriers and into normal parking spaces. It also has an extremely comfortable bed which we leave up all the time.

So to round this rather long post off. Last night we cooked dinner looking out at this view:


And this is what we opened the door to this morning:


Could be worse .

 

[DarloRich]

That’s a great job they’ve done on the van. It’s a perfect size for longer trips away as well with the lounge area at the front. Love it.

thanks! Not having to make the bed out of the front seats is fantastic. It means we have a permanent living space with the bed made anytime you want it. it also means if one person wants to sit u pa bit longer they can. In the old van when one wanted bed both wanted bed!

the two front seats swivel to make 4 seats in the lounge area so we have space for guests and the two seater and the drivers seats make up a third bed in case anyone stays!

about 1992 and I had that VW T2 for eight years in total,

as kids mum and dad had a VW T2 - sadly the oil line split on the M1 and it caught fire - flames were coming out of the air vents! That was dramatic. The van actually survived and was re engined and sold on.

We had the Sprinter for nine years and covered something like 120,000 miles in the old girl.

I wasn't allowed a Sprinter or Crafter something about not being licensed to drive one!) so we went for the biggest van I could drive on my license. The boss can drive bigger vans

And this is what we opened the door to this morning:

and that is the point!

 

[Peter Sarf]

no messing about Not making the bed every day is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO good! Seats all road legal

PS - i have no idea the final cost. The boss wont tell me! ( suspect budget shattered on something!) It is an L4/H3 Peugeot Boxer. Second hand from business use but in good nick and not used by a brickie or amazon!

I would have a pre-dented ex Amazon - if its not been thrashed to death. Depends on reliability of make/model I suppose.

@Cowley
Lovely photos. I like the idea of the front seats rotating 180 degrees - called a "captains chair" iirc. One year the van we hired did that - I remember it because next morning we could not turn it back to forwards position - being the driving seat we persevered !.

I have to say i noticed you Sprinter van was on a...... TRAIN !.

If VW T2s were not so "fashionable" (expensive) I would have one as they seem basic, easy to work on and so common that spares are easy to get. Oh for my uncles VW T2. Actually I would go for the more ugly next version (the last rear engined one T25/T2.5 ?) as most of those were GALVANISED !.

 

[DarloRich]

It is my contention that there is a very recent phenomenon of comfortably well off people investing in pretty basic (but not necessarily budget) van conversions to create what I am convinced are primarily going to be used as day vans

I think that is fair - recently I took my nephew to a cycle race he was competing in and several families had similar vehicles. They all seemed fairly "well off" but I think it is important to note that, as I said above, I know a couple of people who are slowly converting a van to thier requirements as time and cost allow. At present those vans are pretty basic. One guy is just using an airbed and a gas stove in the back of a boarded out former delivery van but is added to it as he can.

I think you have a false understanding of the costs, time and skills involved in all of this. The manufacturer built vehicles are aimed at the lump sum retirees. The prices are crazy! There has been a boom in self conversions in the last few years driven by COVID and that has meant many more younger people and those with families are out and about. There are also many more conversion companies ( like the one we used) cashing on this demand. It is/has been quite fashionable to have a van and the demographic of people involved has changed quite a bit in the last 10 years.

and this might harm the railway.

I don't really see how!

people use vans for lots of things, and maybe more than they used to, because 2020s".

Agreed - covid was a big part of that

It is exactly what I would use such a thing for,

thing? I don't think your wording and language are helping with comprehension.

But since this thread has got so far off the original attempted purpose for reasons I cannot fathom one bit,

I don't think you have clearly expressed your point. I am still not sure what it is, really or how you have reached such a conclusion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2024 ==

I would have a pre-dented ex Amazon - if its not been thrashed to death. Depends on reliability of make/model I suppose.

a lot we looked at had had a hard life even in 2 or 3 years. Even the better former delivery vans had ruined floors or seats, bashed about trim and dings and dents all over - it is unavoidable in that kind of work.

Ours came from a textile delivery company, had only really done motorway miles had been on fleet so was well serviced and had been looked after as it was one of only a couple of vehicles the company leased and the drivers treated after them well. We were really lucky to drop on it.

I like the idea of the front seats rotating 180 degrees - called a "captains chair" iirc.

They really add to the usable space. The turntable does make you sit a bit higher in the driving position.

If VW T2s were not so "fashionable" (expensive) I would have one as they seem basic, easy to work on and so common that spares are easy to get

They are VERY expensive and the new transporters are a massive insurance risk. They get pinched all the time

That’s a great job they’ve done on the van.

We have livery still to do. I suggested trainload coal or loadhaul but the boss got quite angry at that and threw something at me. I think i almost got dumped by suggesting Rothmans Racing I didn't dare suggest Lancaster bomber camouflage!

 

[GusB]

I've got a few thoughts to add, but I'll answer the original question first. Do I think van conversions will hurt rail usage? Not really. People are increasingly able to work more flexibly and working from home has become an option for many over the last few years. Some employers have seen the value in having a 4-day week, which gives people more leisure time. With recent improvements in mobile internet, it's now becoming possible to work away from home too, so why not buy a van and make some basic modifications in order to provide some comfort for a few days away? Changing work practices will certainly affect the rail network in terms of a loss of commuter traffic but it's flexible working that's responsible - not people buying second-hand vans!

The example I've given above isn't going to apply to everyone, of course. The attraction is in the ability to just hop in and drive off for a couple of days. You don't have to worry about booking in advance. If there's a favourable change in the weather (it is the UK!) and you decide that you'd like to go somewhere nice, you can do so without having to worry about paying last minute hikes in hotel and B&B prices that would otherwise make an ad-hoc weekend away unaffordable. If you were planning to visit some attractions in a big city and a huge event is announced to take place there, you don't need to worry about having your booking cancelled and re-advertised at exorbitant prices; simply park your van a few miles away and either use the bus or train to get to your event. If anything, leisure travel by rail may increase as people choose to park and ride when going to various attractions.

My neighbour fitted a solar kit to his Renault Kangoo. It's not even a van - just a regular car with windows. He explained to me that he likes going off into the wild every now and again and that the car (it's not a van) is comfortable enough to sleep in for a few nights. The solar panel is the only conversion and presumably it provides enough juice to keep things like a phone, tablet or laptop charged. I don't know if he has some way of blocking out light, or whether he just doesn't bother. It's less hassle than having to pitch a tent and then hurriedly take the thing down again if there's a sudden adverse spell of weather.

The main reasons for having an ordinary van converted have been explained well enough above, but I'd also like to add that they're a damn sight easier to park and less of a pain in the backside on the road than "proper" campervans. Where I live, campervans have been a summer phenomenon for decades but recently their numbers have increased significantly and you see them all year round. We've also gone from the "caravanette" of the old days and are steadily moving towards fatter "RVs". There's a household round the corner from me that has one and they insist on parking it on the street pavement; if it's parked fully on the road it causes an issue for other wide vehicles getting past.

I haven't even touched on how much of a pest they are on single-track roads, but that's probably a topic for a separate thread!