Could airlines ban all electronic devices?

[Howardh]

In the light of pager explosions, one has the feeling any electronic device isn't "safe" any more; and as aircraft are a target for terrorism, is it safe to have any electronic device even in the hold?

How difficult would it be these days to travel with no electronics? We managed in the 80's of course, maybe taking a small radio or cassette player, but that was it! Presumably we would have to revert back to paper tickets, invoices etc, cards for cash would be OK of course, and there's always the option of buying a cheap phone for a tenner abroad if you need to keep contact. Also no doubt there would be an industry in hiring out phones with data included?

Anyhow, back to the first point, anyone else think that electronics will start to be excluded from carriage? Or can the scanners pick out the "dangerous" items - could a scanner pick out a pager containing explosives?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This would be completely unworkable and would not happen. It would kill business travel stone dead, and it's already pining for the fjords.

 

[Howardh]

This would be completely unworkable and would not happen. It would kill business travel stone dead, and it's already pining for the fjords.

All it takes is an attack on an aircraft which gets past current security; and that's that.

Would people fly at all if phones could blow it up? So either way the industry suffers. At least with HS2 we will be able to move around our own country fast, so no worries there!

 

[AlastairFraser]

All it takes is an attack on an aircraft which gets past current security; and that's that.

Would people fly at all if phones could blow it up? So either way the industry suffers. At least with HS2 we will be able to move around our own country fast, so no worries there!

The recent explosions were due to a certain intelligence agency's infiltration of a pager supplier. It would be better to do audit checks of each mobile phone supplier, before approval for aviation, and ban devices from manufacturers that have not been audited.

 

[Howardh]

The recent explosions were due to a certain intelligence agency's infiltration of a pager supplier. It would be better to do audit checks of each mobile phone supplier, before approval for aviation, and ban devices from manufacturers that have not been audited.

Would these pagers have been picked up by airport security scanners? If they could then in areas of conflict could use similar scanners so people can scan their new phones (etc) for piece of mind? I'm assuming the scanners would, I presume the authorities have tested them against small devices containing explosives?

 

[Ediswan]

No,

For one thing, any such ban would be attributable to the actions of Israel, which would be politically 'difficult'.

Phones are already prone to acting as incendiary devices. The risk is managed.

 

[Butts]

If it means the return of Free Newspapers on BA - Ban the lot !!

 

[signed]

one has the feeling any electronic device isn't "safe" any more

Any device containing a lithium battery is inherently quite unsafe as they like to explode, but Battery Management Systems (BMS) are made to try to keep the battery happy.

Anyhow, back to the first point, anyone else think that electronics will start to be excluded from carriage?

No, a phone now contains the life of someone. Laptops are still a staple of any business trip...

 

[Howardh]

Any device containing a lithium battery is inherently quite unsafe as they like to explode, but Battery Management Systems (BMS) are made to try to keep the battery happy.

We are told in the cabin that if we "lose" the phone alert the staff so it can be found - for that reason alone I feel!

 

[signed]

for that reason alone I feel!

Probably, same with if your phone gets hot you should alert.

That issue will come on ferries very soon with EVs. Companies have started to offer charging on those, which is probably quite dangerous as a very hard to extinguish fire on sea is the worst case scenario

 

[dosxuk]

We are told in the cabin that if we "lose" the phone alert the staff so it can be found - for that reason alone I feel!

Too many people have lost a phone in a seat (particularly the big, mechanical business class style seats), tried adjusting it to get better access to retrieve the device, only managing to break the battery and set it on fire in the process. Crew have access to tools and other options for dismantling seats with lost devices than passengers do, hence the repetitive messaging about this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any device containing a lithium battery is inherently quite unsafe as they like to explode

I think saying that was gross hyperbole would be a fine piece of British understatement, to be honest.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Would these pagers have been picked up by airport security scanners? If they could then in areas of conflict could use similar scanners so people can scan their new phones (etc) for piece of mind? I'm assuming the scanners would, I presume the authorities have tested them against small devices containing explosives?

If the reports I have seen are correct, the Israelis fitted a tiny little board with a very small amount of explosive in - hence the relative inconspicuousness for any scanner, so any surveillance would need to be done at the manufacturing stage.

 

[birchesgreen]

So no one would be able to go on holiday with their phones, ipads, laptops, mp3 players, even their smart watches?

That would be a courageous move.

 

[Butts]

So no one would be able to go on holiday with their phones, ipads, laptops, mp3 players, even their smart watches?

That would be a courageous move.

Good we might get a bit of peace and quiet.

 

[DanNCL]

No chance as it would completely kill the airline industry. People will refuse to travel without their devices, that’s the reality in 2024. And I can’t say I’d blame them, indeed if I couldn’t take my phone with me I too would refuse to travel.

 

[AlastairFraser]

No chance as it would completely kill the airline industry. People will refuse to travel without their devices, that’s the reality in 2024. And I can’t say I’d blame them, indeed if I couldn’t take my phone with me I too would refuse to travel.

It would undermine a lot of the airlines' move to mobile boarding passes too.

 

[Butts]

No chance as it would completely kill the airline industry. People will refuse to travel without their devices, that’s the reality in 2024. And I can’t say I’d blame them, indeed if I couldn’t take my phone with me I too would refuse to travel.

Is this the ultimate Green Trojan Horse ?

 

[AM9]

Is this the ultimate Green Trojan Horse ?

If all these threats to not travel by air if pet electronic devices weren't allowed on board materialised, it would indeed be a major step towards dealing with the aviation industy's proligate consumption of carbon fuels.

 

[185]

Interestingly, on two Malaysian and one Singaporean based carrier, the cabin crew walked around "examining phones" to ensure everyone had turned them off as part of the cabin prep for landing. On one, Batak Air - whilst "checking phones" they missed three reclined seats, one blind down, two with belts visibly off and one guy sat there with his tray down eating a bag of pistachios.

The OMG pager hype is a red herring. Should see this as the same type of device that got through Sharm el-Sheikh onto the Russian Metrojet flight. Doesn't matter how it's packaged, airport explosives detectors must pick it up be it in hand or hold luggage.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Doesn't matter how it's packaged, airport explosives detectors must pick it up be it in hand or hold luggage.

Problem is the Mossad (I will clarify these are still allegations for legal purposes) placed the small explosive board deep inside the pager. I think it would be very very difficult to detect, to be fair.

 

[Lost property]

Too many people have lost a phone in a seat (particularly the big, mechanical business class style seats), tried adjusting it to get better access to retrieve the device, only managing to break the battery and set it on fire in the process. Crew have access to tools and other options for dismantling seats with lost devices than passengers do, hence the repetitive messaging about this.

Do you have any evidence of such events in flight ?

And what tools do CC carry to enable them to access seats ?.....that, and most CC are barely capable of operating galley equipment, let alone the complexity of seat engineering.

As for the other options, unless you can think of others, there's two.

If the aircraft is carrying a flying spanner, then recovery of the item should be possible. If not, wait until on the ground and a trimmer or engineer can retrieve it.

 

[DanNCL]

I think the issue also applies that if an explosive can be successfully hidden in something like a pager, what’s to say it can’t be hidden in a suitcase or even on a persons clothing?

A line has to be drawn somewhere, the only way you’d 100% know there weren’t any explosives is if you banned people from taking anything other than their travel documents with them and by subjecting every single person to an invasive strip search at security. They’d never get away with either of those as both are completely unreasonable to expect passengers to comply with, which means a level of risk has to be accepted, the current setup at security seems to be the level of risk the authorities are prepared to accept and I can’t see these exploding pagers in Lebanon changing that.

 

[dosxuk]

Do you have any evidence of such events in flight ?

AAIB investigation to Boeing 787-9, G-ZBKF

Mobile phone crushed in seat mechanism, London Heathrow Airport, 1 October 2020.

www.gov.uk

The aircraft was approaching the top of descent when the cabin crew saw smoke emanating from a passenger seat. It was discovered that a mobile phone had fallen down the side of the seat and had been crushed in the seat mechanism. The cabin crew extinguished the fire and the aircraft continued to its destination. There was no damage to the aircraft.

The CAA reviewed its Mandatory Occurrence Report database and found 166 previous reports of PED’s becoming trapped in passenger seats in the last five years. Of these events 42 resulted in a fire or smoke in the cabin.

 

[jon81uk]

Do you have any evidence of such events in flight ?

And what tools do CC carry to enable them to access seats ?.....that, and most CC are barely capable of operating galley equipment, let alone the complexity of seat engineering.

As for the other options, unless you can think of others, there's two.

If the aircraft is carrying a flying spanner, then recovery of the item should be possible. If not, wait until on the ground and a trimmer or engineer can retrieve it.

While it is different to retrieving a lost item, on a recent flight someones business class seat would not recline, the electronic motors didn't work, the cabin crew got a large wrench thing that connected under the seat and manually wound the seat to another position.

I think the risk with dropping an item into one of those large seats is also personal injury, someone could try reaching under seat cushions themselves and injure themselves on sharp metal, trap themselves in the mechanism or crush their hand if somehow the motor started moving the seat.

There will be a manual process to open it and I'd be almost certain the crew are trained on it, similar to the above example of manual recline. They also have fireproof bags to store damaged electricals in.

 

[185]

Problem is the Mossad (I will clarify these are still allegations for legal purposes) placed the small explosive board deep inside the pager. I think it would be very very difficult to detect, to be fair.

That's why the detection kit used has to be spot on. And it doesn't help matters that at Manchester Airport, when some loon did try get a viable pipe bomb through security, one of the contract security firm intercepted the device, didn't know what it was or why it was setting the explosives detector off, walked around with it in her pocket for several hours including a dinner break before handing the bomb in several hours later. Like you do.

In fairness, I'd probably do that...

 

[AlastairFraser]

That's why the detection kit used has to be spot on. And it doesn't help matters that at Manchester Airport, when some loon did try get a viable pipe bomb through security, one of the contract security firm intercepted the device, didn't know what it was or why it was setting the explosives detector off, walked around with it in her pocket for several hours including a dinner break before handing the bomb in several hours later. Like you do.

In fairness, I'd probably do that...

I'm not sure any explosives detection kit on the market would have picked the explosive boards on those pages tbf, too small.
The Manchester Airport security doesn't surprise me. You do truly get what you pay for (**** all) if you fly through T3 there

 

[Howardh]

I'm not sure any explosives detection kit on the market would have picked the explosive boards on those pages tbf, too small.
The Manchester Airport security doesn't surprise me. You do truly get what you pay for (**** all) if you fly through T3 there

Just been through T3, all the right stuff separated etc, but still got pulled over. They found a tin of Nivea in my case, but when they opened it my tablets were in that I'd decanted into. So really not sure why that was picked up, as there was no liquid or gel in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just been through T3, all the right stuff separated etc, but still got pulled over. They found a tin of Nivea in my case, but when they opened it my tablets were in that I'd decanted into. So really not sure why that was picked up, as there was no liquid or gel in.

Are they using new or old scanners? If the old ones they can only see the shape of the vessel and would need it opened to see if it contained liquid.

 

[sprunt]

That, or it's an Ibiza flight and they thought "Aye-aye" when they saw a container full of pills...

That's a point actually, if airport security staff spot something that isn't a safety-related banned item but is some other type of contraband, do they care?