Could a UK-wide contactless scheme work?

[signed]

As always let's look at the Netherlands for an example. Depending on the type of card and if the start or end is missing, it's ether a flat €20 or the maximum possible single (€33.30 2nd class, €59.94 1st class, €46.62 weekend 1st). For reference the penalty fare is €70 + fare due, with a €20 reduction for paying immediately on-board.

The Netherlands is tiny compared to the UK though, as reflected by the fares you quote


In my opinion, a country wide non-GPS based PAYG is a non-starter

Assume tickets have been withdrawn for sale of argument

How could you determine the fairest incomplete fee

1. The most expensive single in the whole network, currently at £320.80, most people won’t have even £100 to part with at any given time, the risk would be well too immense for people
2. Have a different missed journey fee per station, confusing to the max, though that is TfL trial method
3. A flat fee, but how much, £50, 75, 100? What if someone just missed tapping on a 5-minute journey? And in the current fare climate you could well do more than £100 travel and get rewarded for not tapping in/out

Maximum journey times

How do you cater to people PAYG from Scotland to London, taking >4h, while catering to people going few stops down the line, in the Netherlands, the longest train is 2.5h

- Zones? But based from where?, a set of zones per station?
- No max journey times other than maybe a 1 day limit?
Then what’s preventing people from tapping in at Penzance, getting out at Edinburgh, having not travelled via London, stayed in-system, and just paying the incomplete journey fee.

The reverse works as well, what if you put the max journey time at like 6h30 and now people can’t travel from Penzance to Edinburgh, not via London and staying in system, without splitting somewhere.

You could have a set of pink reader at every interchange stations that would apply a higher incomplete journey fee and/or reset the minimum journey times, but what about direct trains?

Of course the system could adapt in the backend but I do not believe it can be made to adapt to a much larger country than the Netherlands this easy, and even with GPS you’ll end up with massive issues regarding capacity management

Japan has a basically nationwide IC system, but the vast majority of the stations have ticket gates. And you cannot use the Shinkansen with an IC card’s balance so that avoids a lot of the issues.

If you end up at a gated station, It won’t let you leave (if you forget to tap in) or back in (if you forget to tap out), until you settle the fare at a machine or with staff

 

[Watershed]

There's a reason why GTR and SWR went for a smartcard-based PAYG system - it prevents widescale fraud and abuse, as it's tricky for one person to get multiple cards. Not impossible of course, but certainly too much hassle to do on a daily basis. I think that's the only way a nationwide version of PAYG could even begin to work. Even then we would need to have a serious think about the amount we charge for fares and what we'd set the incomplete journey fee at.

Japan has a basically nationwide IC system

IC covers the majority of densely populated areas but you can't simply touch in at one end of the country and out at the other. For example JR Central and JR East have adjoining IC card areas but you can't travel between the two without touching out and back in at the boundary station. JR East's IC card area is massive - it stretches around 200 miles as the crow flies from one end to the other - but you can only make journeys where the distance is calculated as up to 200km. For journeys longer than that you again have to split somewhere en-route.

Moreover, you need a limited express supplement to use most trains other than local services, and whilst you can combine an IC card with such a supplement, if you're already going to a TVM or buying online, you might as well buy your ticket there too at the same time. It's just a completely different model to what we have - it makes a lot of sense, but it's hard to see how it would be translated over to here.

but the vast majority of the stations have ticket gates

Yes and those that don't are generally only served by trains where you pay your fare, or show your ticket, to the driver when alighting.

 

[blimmo]

Even if all these problems were fixed the fundamental principle of PAYG is that you don't worry about the fare and it'll be mostly reasonable. Imo project oval has already gone too far in this respect and any nationwide PAYG scheme would have this problem. If you have to look up the fare beforehand you may as well buy the ticket.

Japan (some areas) does this quite well actually I think (except where IC areas adjoin) since IC cards can be used for local travel and long distance tickets can be bought online and associated with a card to work the barriers.

 

[Trainguy34]

Having ticket readers by the door on each train, perhaps in the vestibule, where you have to tap on/off could work?

 

[stevieinselby]

Having ticket readers by the door on each train, perhaps in the vestibule, where you have to tap on/off could work?

Too easy for people to tap out at the second station on their journey and tap back in at the penultimate station, unless there are regular on-train checks.

 

[PeterC]

Even if all these problems were fixed the fundamental principle of PAYG is that you don't worry about the fare and it'll be mostly reasonable. Imo project oval has already gone too far in this respect and any nationwide PAYG scheme would have this problem. If you have to look up the fare beforehand you may as well buy the ticket.

I agree about Oval. Plugging a regional network into a system designed for an intensive city Metro was always going to produce issues.

I am totally agnostic obout a national scheme but there is a lot more to it than slapping in readers at stations. To go ahead it would need to go back to first principles and review or redesign all revenue related procedures and regulations.

 

[The exile]

Pay as you go is all well and good for shortish journeys but not for longer ones - and us of course incompatible with any kind of advance fare. Keep PAYG for defined (mostly metropolitan) areas and byxx vs all means have a smartcard system onto which you can load pre-paid journeys for long-distance and journeys outside the PAYG area.