Couchettes or roomettes

[matacaster]

Would these far cheaper options be a more economic solution or additional option to sleepers?

 

[RT4038]

The cost of providing/building and operating the actual piece of rolling stock is going to be roughly the same. So the economics is going to boil down to how many fare paying passengers are being conveyed in each piece of rolling stock and at what fares. Not how many could be conveyed, but how many tickets would be sold and at what revenue. I know exactly what a couchette is, but am unsure of the roomette, but I am guessing that both involve people sharing sleeping space with others. I think in this day and age, with all the alternatives that are on offer, that this will not be particularly popular. (notwithstanding that it was commonplace in earlier eras). Therefore it is not likely to be an economic 'solution' (quite what you are trying to solve is not clear?)


Couchettes or Roomette cars are not going to have the same capacity as 'open' day cars, nor the same utilisation profile (basically one run every 24 hours), so the fares are always going to be higher for these services than with normal day stock.

 

[NoRoute]

I don't expect most people would find the idea of sharing a sleeping space with a total stranger acceptable, the sleeping area has to provide a separately enclosed space for the individual traveller to sleep. Personally I wouldn't expect it to be much bigger than the bed, something equivalent in volume to a small tent or tube, but it needs to be separate and secure.

An example I saw once was in Japan they have 'capsule' hotels, basically a bed in a large tube with a door on the end, or on the side. A compact personal sleeping space. That seemed quite a good design.

 

[hexagon789]

unsure of the roomette,

Assuming it's as per US/Canada, it is essentially a single room little bigger than a bed. There is a toilet in the room under the bed, which can be lifted to "day mode" where a shelf, the toilet and a padded seat are revealed by hinging up the bed.

 

[Iskra]

I don't expect most people would find the idea of sharing a sleeping space with a total stranger acceptable, the sleeping area has to provide a separately enclosed space for the individual traveller to sleep. Personally I wouldn't expect it to be much bigger than the bed, something equivalent in volume to a small tent or tube, but it needs to be separate and secure.

An example I saw once was in Japan they have 'capsule' hotels, basically a bed in a large tube with a door on the end, or on the side. A compact personal sleeping space. That seemed quite a good design.

This is why sharing with strangers was phased out on the Caledonian Sleeper.

People don’t like it. It’s quite culturally un-British, but Europeans seem okay with it. You don’t see it in North America either.

Have there ever been examples of Couchettes in the UK?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lengthways is an issue because people need to travel feet first to avoid a broken neck in a collision (which is the reason the pods got dropped), and the CS at least reverses in the night.

Sideways capsules might work, though with the very narrow aisle getting in could be awkward.

 

[MattRat]

Roomettes could theoretically work, it's a smaller but still private space, but costs less. The public would be more than willing to pay.

However, I don't see rail companies offering it because they value a small amount of high paying customers over a hight amount of low paying customers. Just look at the ratio of first to standard on most trains despite overcrowding in standard. They simply don't care about low paying customers.

 

[matacaster]

The cost of providing/building and operating the actual piece of rolling stock is going to be roughly the same. So the economics is going to boil down to how many fare paying passengers are being conveyed in each piece of rolling stock and at what fares. Not how many could be conveyed, but how many tickets would be sold and at what revenue. I know exactly what a couchette is, but am unsure of the roomette, but I am guessing that both involve people sharing sleeping space with others. I think in this day and age, with all the alternatives that are on offer, that this will not be particularly popular. (notwithstanding that it was commonplace in earlier eras). Therefore it is not likely to be an economic 'solution' (quite what you are trying to solve is not clear?)


Couchettes or Roomette cars are not going to have the same capacity as 'open' day cars, nor the same utilisation profile (basically one run every 24 hours), so the fares are always going to be higher for these services than with normal day stock.

Roomette is 6'6" x 3'6, but fairly high. 2 x people, seats during day, 2 x bunks at night.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2022 ==

I don't expect most people would find the idea of sharing a sleeping space with a total stranger acceptable, the sleeping area has to provide a separately enclosed space for the individual traveller to sleep. Personally I wouldn't expect it to be much bigger than the bed, something equivalent in volume to a small tent or tube, but it needs to be separate and secure.

An example I saw once was in Japan they have 'capsule' hotels, basically a bed in a large tube with a door on the end, or on the side. A compact personal sleeping space. That seemed quite a good design.

As far as I'm aware, 6 x people in a couchettes is normal for France... At least it was.

 

[HSTEd]

Lengthways is an issue because people need to travel feet first to avoid a broken neck in a collision (which is the reason the pods got dropped), and the CS at least reverses in the night.

I don't think that's really practical, as you say, without some enormous gauge clearance progarmme!

If we had Shinkansen loading gauge, maybe, but we don't.

 

[RT4038]

Roomette is 6'6" x 3'6, but fairly high. 2 x people, seats during day, 2 x bunks at night.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2022 ==


As far as I'm aware, 6 x people in a couchettes is normal for France... At least it was.

Thanks. So what are these a solution to?

 

[NoRoute]

So what are these a solution to?

Fear of flying. Given a choice between a sleeper sharing with 5 strangers or taking the plane, I think most would over-come any phobia and take the plane.

 

[RT4038]

Fear of flying. Given a choice between a sleeper sharing with 5 strangers or taking the plane, I think most would over-come any phobia and take the plane.

or taking a day train?

I get the fear of flying (which has to be fairly niche) but the economics of sleepers, couchettes, roomettes are pretty poor (for the operator / taxpayer, or the passenger, or both)

 

[AlterEgo]

Assuming it's as per US/Canada, it is essentially a single room little bigger than a bed. There is a toilet in the room under the bed, which can be lifted to "day mode" where a shelf, the toilet and a padded seat are revealed by hinging up the bed.

Only a minority of romomettes on Amtrak now have the weird toilet in the room. No Superliners have it and only the unrefurbished Viewliners do. The refurbed ones removed it.

 

[hexagon789]

Only a minority of romomettes on Amtrak now have the weird toilet in the room. No Superliners have it and only the unrefurbished Viewliners do. The refurbed ones removed it.

Ah, fair enough. I think VIA still has the toilet in the room arrangement on the Budd "Manor" cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah, fair enough. I think VIA still has the toilet in the room arrangement on the Budd "Manor" cars.

I believe so, or at least it did when I was on one. Doubt I'd use it. You can't at the time you'd most want to anyway, i.e. in the night, as the bed is over the top.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ah, fair enough. I think VIA still has the toilet in the room arrangement on the Budd "Manor" cars.

They do! I was on one last month. (And I’m posting this from an Amtrak “new” roomette!)

 

[hexagon789]

I believe so, or at least it did when I was on one. Doubt I'd use it. You can't at the time you'd most want to anyway, i.e. in the night, as the bed is over the top.

They do! I was on one last month. (And I’m posting this from an Amtrak “new” roomette!)

I often wonder what the point was with the design, given it can only really be used in day mode and arguably it's nighttime that people would prefer to not have to go down the end of the car for a toilet than daytime.

 

[30907]

This is why sharing with strangers was phased out on the Caledonian Sleeper.

People don’t like it. It’s quite culturally un-British,

Think that's relatively recent - or reflects increased disposable income?

Have there ever been examples of Couchettes in the UK?

Third class sleepers before the Mk1s were 4 berth with no washbasin, but I think had proper bedding. 6-berth was of course impossible, and is disappearing in Western Europe.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This is why sharing with strangers was phased out on the Caledonian Sleeper.

People don’t like it. It’s quite culturally un-British, but Europeans seem okay with it. You don’t see it in North America either.

Have there ever been examples of Couchettes in the UK?

I'd have no issue sharing a 6 or 4-berth couchette with strangers, as long as I'd paid a suitably low price for the privilege. Think of it as a hostel on wheels.
However there's a limit to how low the fares can go before the service becomes unviable, due to the higher overheads compared to conventional seated trains.

 

[RT4038]

I'd have no issue sharing a 6 or 4-berth couchette with strangers, as long as I'd paid a suitably low price for the privilege. Think of it as a hostel on wheels.
However there's a limit to how low the fares can go before the service becomes unviable, due to the higher overheads compared to conventional seated trains.

And, of course, as to whether these would attract sufficient like minded people to maintain economical occupancy rates.

 

[Austriantrain]

Lengthways is an issue because people need to travel feet first to avoid a broken neck in a collision (which is the reason the pods got dropped), and the CS at least reverses in the night.

Sideways capsules might work, though with the very narrow aisle getting in could be awkward.

The new NightJet sets will have (sideway) capsules, roughly four in the space of a couchette room.

Curious to see how popular these will be…

Some renderings can be seen here: https://www.nightjet.com/en/komfortkategorien/nightjet-neue-generation

 

[philosopher]

The new NightJet sets will have (sideway) capsules, roughly four in the space of a couchette room.

Curious to see how popular these will be…

Some renderings can be seen here: https://www.nightjet.com/en/komfortkategorien/nightjet-neue-generation

Looking at those renderings, it does look like it would be impossible for an adult to sit up without their head hitting the berth above, so during the day they have slouch or lie down in their berth.

 

[HSTEd]

Even these mini pod fitted vehicles are hit by the tyranny of volume constraints. You can't hope to fit more than eight or nine of those quad pod compartments into a vehicle given safety and accessibility regulations.

So your vehicle, that could seat 80+ day passengers can carry.... 32-36 night ones.

It would end up ludicrously more expensive that catching the last day train and staying in a hotel.
It would be better to have hotels closely Integrated with major railway stations - hotel check in integrated with tickets etc.l and have an entrance straight from the platforms.

 

[30907]

My impression is that there is room to sit but not stand in the pods. Given the max NJ journey is 14hr or so, not so big an issue.