Costing a Light Rail System

[MK Tom]

Does anyone have any idea how to go about getting an approximate cost for a proposed light rail installation? I and a group of others are putting together a proposal for a system and we're looking to demonstrate that it could be delivered at substantially lower cost than is typical for systems in this country. The system would consist of:

1 line totalling 3.15km double track and 0.6km single track, all on-street.
6 two-platform stops and 1 one-platform stop.
A fleet of six LRVs of a small, three-segment design like those found in Naples or on Paris line T5.
A small maintenance facility to accommodate this fleet.

This could take the form of either an insulated two-rail system like the LR55 system or a single-rail Translohr system. The main aim is to keep the cost to a bare minimum.

Thanks for any insights anyone can offer.

 

[WatcherZero]

Rule of thumb is £10m per double track km for segregated track and £20m per km for embedded track. Stations cost a couple of hundred thousand for a functional sheltered stop and rise substantially if you want to make it a landmark station. Trams cost around £2.2m each nowadays. Maintenance facility if its sized to only ever accommodate the 6 then maybe around £5m upwards as you add more space. Planning and design costs will add a significant margin, land acquisition, traffic alterations, utilities relocations are pretty expensive.

All together your probably talking a package around £150-180m minimum.

As a comparison in 2008 money the 3.9km all street running Droysldon-Ashton extension cost £88m but that didn't include a depot, was only four trams and four stops and was on the back of a much larger programme giving large economies of scale.


While creating some figures to augment your proposal allows a talking point its only really going to be taken seriously if its been done by an engineering consultancy.

 

[MK Tom]

Thanks, that's a helpful ballpark figure for a full-blown installation like we see elsewhere in the UK. What we're after though is some idea of lower-cost alternatives, such as insulated track systems that remove much of the need for utility diversions, or Translohr, or narrow gauge options.

 

[edwin_m]

Might be worth seeing if there are any documents relating to the cost of works in Paris, as they have introduced both conventional tramways and Translohr in the last couple of years. I had a ride on the Translohr and it must have been cheaper as there was precious little else to recommend it.

Incidentally it's not insulated track that might reduce the need to disrupt utilities. Most UK street tracks are insulated (on a dry day at least) and the utilities still have to move. The reason to move utilities is that they are shallow enough to clash with the rather deep excavation needed for the street tracks, or so they can be accessed for maintenance after the tramway opens. So you might be looking at shallow rail sections, possibly integrated with concrete slabs, which I've seen at a couple of exhibitions recently. Having said that several people have tried this way before, including the Parry "carpet track" and the LR55 rail, and nobody has made any large-scale use of it.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The new tramway system in Besançon was designed to be much lower cost than other comparable systems, so it's probably a good place to start.

 

[WatcherZero]

Incidentally it's not insulated track that might reduce the need to disrupt utilities. Most UK street tracks are insulated (on a dry day at least) and the utilities still have to move. The reason to move utilities is that they are shallow enough to clash with the rather deep excavation needed for the street tracks, or so they can be accessed for maintenance after the tramway opens. So you might be looking at shallow rail sections, possibly integrated with concrete slabs, which I've seen at a couple of exhibitions recently. Having said that several people have tried this way before, including the Parry "carpet track" and the LR55 rail, and nobody has made any large-scale use of it.

Indeed, experience has been that while initial installation is cheaper you then have the cost and disruption of requiring line closures every time the utilities need repairing or upgrading in the future. Two or three excavations during the lifetime of the track mean the cost outweighs the initial savings.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Parry People Movers have a very cheap alternative called 'Carpet Track'. It only uses the top layer of the road so doesn't take sny longer than a resurfacing to install. And pipes underneath don't need to be moved so it saves a fortune.
Their vehicles also don't need overhead wires which saves a bit more money.
Check it out.

 

[edwin_m]

Parry People Movers have a very cheap alternative called 'Carpet Track'. It only uses the top layer of the road so doesn't take sny longer than a resurfacing to install. And pipes underneath don't need to be moved so it saves a fortune.
Their vehicles also don't need overhead wires which saves a bit more money.
Check it out.

Just be aware that this track has been around since 1996 to my knowledge and probably longer. It hasn't been used for anything other than trials and demonstrations, so it can't really be considered a proven technology.

 

[WatcherZero]

And the experience is where it was used in Sheffield that it wasn't very practical on a long term basis.

Didn't they replace it after five years or so?

 

[caliwag]

Iquique, Chile...They seem to be building the tram, including the upper deck, on the street. Seems to be horse drawn, though most of the photos don't show a horse...maybe batteries now!

http://www.tramz.com/cl/iq/e.html

 

[Clip]

Parry People Movers have a very cheap alternative called 'Carpet Track'. It only uses the top layer of the road so doesn't take sny longer than a resurfacing to install. And pipes underneath don't need to be moved so it saves a fortune.
Their vehicles also don't need overhead wires which saves a bit more money.
Check it out.

But when the work has to be done on any pipe work underneath you then have to close off a large section of the tramway - which would leave the none depot end without anything running on it surely?

 

[miami]

Heathrow style pods are between £3 and 5m per km and may be a far better solution for you. At 1/20th the price got to be worth looking at.

 

[Busaholic]

I don't whether the people behind Preston Trampower are still involved in such ideas, having been officially rebuffed, but I believe they had a demonstration track and were working on a lower-cost solution to light rail provision. It's being responsible for the repositioning of all the sub-surface infrastructure that makes tramways significanrly more expensive to build in this country than in many others.

 

[34D]

Two comments:

Douglas corporation are (allegedly) to relay the horse tramway track on a new alignment. May be useful for costings.

Secondly (and I have no idea whether you are seeking to do a credible study at the behest of a local authority, or as part of a uni/school project, or just for the delectation of the forum) it may be worth just looking at buses and reserved track sections.

 

[WatcherZero]

Going back to your original comparison request the T5 line in Paris which uses rubber wheeled trams cost just over 160m Euro or £120m, it is 6.6km long with 16 stations and five trams which cost £25m. They spent 40m Euros on land clearance and utilities redirection. The cost for infrastructure was 24.7m Euros per km compared to 24.3m for T1 West and RATP the appointed operator tried to get the Translohr system changed to normal rails.

Translohr actually declared bankruptcy in 2012 during construction because they were late on delivery and facing compensation payments (as well as not having many customers) and the government intervened to have Alstom buy them out to avoid the cost of switching to steel rails mid build. Ironically the risk that they may become bankrupt because they were a small company with limited orders (having most orders built under license in Italy, China, Colombia) was identified in 2005!

http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/...hr-a-division-of-the-alsace-based-lohr-group/

 

[nerd]

The tricky phase in your request is 'on-street'; do these streets run through a town centre, and how old are they?

Costing of utility diversions, is very difficult if you don't have good records of where and how any utilities may have been excavated and moved over the centuries. If the route runs alongside (and over)an old churchyard, or chapel site; that adds a whole new dimension of legal complexity and preparation time.