Cost to add/restore Chesham to Chalfont and Latimer Shuttle?

[billyb750]

Hi all,

As you may be aware, on the LU Metropolitan Line, Chesham receives a 2TPH through service to central London.

Though noting the disused bay platforms at both Chesham and Chalfont and Latimer, I was wondering if anyone had any idea as to the potential cost of increasing this throughput to central London via an additional (reintroduced) shuttle service which makes use of the bay platforms at either end of the line, which might then allow for an increased service to say 4TPH, with 2TPH going through to central London, and the other 2TPH changing at Chalfont and Latimer to pick a service from Amersham?

I can’t recall the length of the bay platforms, but worst case could they not use a four car Class 710 train as the additional shuttle service?

I am just trying to quantify how much this might cost to set up? A main overhead initially would be restoring the bay platforms at Chesham and Chalfont and Latimer, with additional cost of acquiring the new train to run the service. Supposedly then, it would just be the principal cost of running/maintaining the additional train. I wonder how much this would practically cost?

I am just trying to perform a feasibility study in respect of the same, to see if it possible (or not) to even consider, to help develop the Chesham transport infrastructure?!

Anyone who can give some figures would be really appreciated!

 

[SynthD]

They’d much rather use the same trains and not create an island.
Does the traffic demand 4tph? When they had more than 2 were more people using it?
Looks like they own the land they need for lengthening the platform, but is it worth the cost?

 

[bramling]

Hi all,

As you may be aware, on the LU Metropolitan Line, Chesham receives a 2TPH through service to central London.

Though noting the disused bay platforms at both Chesham and Chalfont and Latimer, I was wondering if anyone had any idea as to the potential cost of increasing this throughput to central London via an additional (reintroduced) shuttle service which makes use of the bay platforms at either end of the line, which might then allow for an increased service to say 4TPH, with 2TPH going through to central London, and the other 2TPH changing at Chalfont and Latimer to pick a service from Amersham?

I can’t recall the length of the bay platforms, but worst case could they not use a four car Class 710 train as the additional shuttle service?

I am just trying to quantify how much this might cost to set up? A main overhead initially would be restoring the bay platforms at Chesham and Chalfont and Latimer, with additional cost of acquiring the new train to run the service. Supposedly then, it would just be the principal cost of running/maintaining the additional train. I wonder how much this would practically cost?

I am just trying to perform a feasibility study in respect of the same, to see if it possible (or not) to even consider, to help develop the Chesham transport infrastructure?!

Anyone who can give some figures would be really appreciated!

I don't think 4tph as proposed is technically feasible. The journey time is approximately 8 mins, so a round trip is 16 mins even allowing for zero layover and junction margin at each end. 16 mins x 4 trips = 64 mins. Even if you could slim the journey time down to fit four trips within the hour, the branch is going to be at or very near to 100% occupancy, which would be a disaster for reliability, especially of the through services, which would in turn drag down the Amersham services plus Chiltern.

To achieve 4tph even on paper there would need to be a combination of some or all of significant line speed enhancements, remodelling of the track layout at both ends and quite significantly at the Chalfont end.

If 4tph is desired I'd suggest the only practical way to achieve it would be with all four trips being a shuttle service, with a driver in each end of the train. Even then there would be a fair amount of work required to be able to achieve four trips each hour.

In short, I'm afraid it's a bit of a non-starter.

 

[30907]

The best frequency you could get on the branch is every 20min - in practice 2 per 45min would mean much less adjustment to the timetable (and was done back in the 70s). That might be worth exploring.

Operating a shuttle would probably increase the total stock requirement as the existing service would have to start from Amersham. A 710 is a non starter as they are AIUI maintained at Willesden which is difficult to assess from Chesham (via the Circle and Richmond, theoretically) and using an S8 (I believe there's a spare) would mean rebuilding the bay platform at Chalfont.

 

[PeterC]

The best frequency you could get on the branch is every 20min - in practice 2 per 45min would mean much less adjustment to the timetable (and was done back in the 70s). That might be worth exploring.

Operating a shuttle would probably increase the total stock requirement as the existing service would have to start from Amersham. A 710 is a non starter as they are AIUI maintained at Willesden which is difficult to assess from Chesham (via the Circle and Richmond, theoretically) and using an S8 (I believe there's a spare) would mean rebuilding the bay platform at Chalfont.

The easiest way, from a TfL perspective, would be hire a unit and driver from Chiltern.

 

[billyb750]

Thanks all! These comments are great. Please do keep them coming!! Keen to explore all practical solutions for upping the current 2TPH from Chesham, mindful of the single track limitation on the Chesham branch.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I would struggle to see how more than 2tph is justified , as it is hardly busy even in normal times.

With TfL's desperate finances , this would come knowhere in a very long list of projects , some of which are critical to keep the existing services running - short term quite severe cuts being considered - off peak and branches. Bus and rail.

 

[billyb750]

I would struggle to see how more than 2tph is justified , as it is hardly busy even in normal times.

With TfL's desperate finances , this would come knowhere in a very long list of projects , some of which are critical to keep the existing services running - short term quite severe cuts being considered - off peak and branches. Bus and rail.

Thanks. The focus may be more for peak hours, and I of course realise any project needs funding, which cannot be borne by TfL exclusively.

At this stage, the question is how the service might be practically increased, not whether it would go ahead or not without funding.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Thanks. The focus may be more for peak hours, and I of course realise any project needs funding, which cannot be borne by TfL exclusively.

At this stage, the question is how the service might be practically increased, not whether it would go ahead or not without funding.

By converting it a through train , they effectively doubled the opex costs (4 cars vice 8) , in terms of car-miles. Maybe some minor train crew costs reduced as a shuttle with Rickmansworth based drivers had to had a break every few hours so they would be swopped out and replaced by a fresh driver.

LUL looked at a passing loop as an option for Crossrail 1 way back - but in reality , the line was almost cut back from the present terminus before then , as a bridge needed replacement , funding of which was eventually and reluctantly agreed.

I am sure other people local to the issue with know more than I do. Does not feel like a winner to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they want a short train for it they could potentially buy back a 4-car D78 set or two from Vivarail? With not many 230 orders I'm sure they have a few spare, and presumably as it's LU it could just run as LU-spec with no changes needed.

I'm not convinced it's entirely necessary, though.

 

[JonathanH]

By converting it a through train , they effectively doubled the opex costs (4 cars vice 8) , in terms of car-miles.

Didn't they just divert part of the Amersham service, thereby saving the cost of the 4-car operation? What was 4tph Amersham off peak became 2tph Amersham and 2tph Chesham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Didn't they just divert part of the Amersham service, thereby saving the cost of the 4-car operation?

Yes, instead of 4tph to Amersham and a shuttle to Chesham it became 2 to each.

I suppose it could be done Swiss Takt style, i.e. a direct train to Amersham meets a shuttle to Chesham and vice-versa. But I suspect people would just use the through trains (or Chiltern in Amersham's case) so there's very little point.

 

[JonathanH]

I suppose it could be done Swiss Takt style, i.e. a direct train to Amersham meets a shuttle to Chesham and vice-versa. But I suspect people would just use the through trains (or Chiltern in Amersham's case) so there's very little point.

The missing bit is arguably the Watford to Amersham 'fresh air' service which I guess has never got past the BCR analysis.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes, instead of 4tph to Amersham and a shuttle to Chesham it became 2 to each.

I suppose it could be done Swiss Takt style, i.e. a direct train to Amersham meets a shuttle to Chesham and vice-versa. But I suspect people would just use the through trains (or Chiltern in Amersham's case) so there's very little point.

It was historically always timed as a shuttle connected into a "fast" all day ex Amersham. (with 2 through am and pm peaks services to the city)