Copyrighted Liveries...

[Jordan Adam]

Note: I've created a new thread as the JMB Travel thread was going off topic and i didn't see anywhere else fitting to reply.

your the forum expert on Aberdeen and I respect that and read with anticipation
But iam not going to start a debate on copyright law
Yes the brand is trademarked and so is the Livery through our marketing ,commercial and p/r partners
When FirstGroup sell a vehicle they stipulate that all FirstGroup livery(THE FIRST ROUNDAL) if not removed at MRU and markings(THE COPORATE COLOURS) are removed prior to the said vehicle resuming natural service ,if the said vehicle does not conform to the stipulation(UPON OBSERVATION) FirstGroup may/will take legal action against the buyer in relation to trademarked law .

I don't claim to be a form expert for anywhere, and i am most certainly not always right.

You stated that the FirstBusUk "Livery" is copyrighted and i simply asked for evidence of this as i wasn't aware it was. Obviously the FirstBus brand may be copyrighted but i don't believe the livery is and hence i was asking if you had any proof to back the statement.

First typically don't sell vehicles to other operators and in most cases when they do sell vehicles they require that you sign a written agreement which states you shall not use the vehicles in revenue earning service - this includes preserved vehicles. This has nothing at all to do with any copyright laws, but rather First wanting to make sure that anyone who buys one of their vehicles will not use it in competition with them.

So my question to members, do trademarked liveries exist in the UK? And if so how does the law around these work, surely if such law existed then Lothian could sue National Express, JMB Travel, YourBus & Blackpool Transport for "pinching" their scheme? I personally find such a concept rather bizarre. Of course we're not talking about corporate brands here, but rather bus paint schemes. Who dictates what's a blatant copy and what isnt...

 

[Bletchleyite]

You stated that the FirstBusUk "Livery" is copyrighted and i simply asked for evidence of this as i wasn't aware it was.

Absolutely everything creative is protected by copyright by default, there is no need to register it or do anything else for it to apply. So a livery certainly is, yes.

One can relinquish one's rights to copyright on a particular creation, such as is done when releasing it under the GPL or if the designer of the livery transferred those rights to First, but if that is not done it exists by default and can be enforced if the owner (the creator) so wishes.

 

[GusB]

I'm no expert on these matters, but a quick search came up with this:

https://www.bl.uk/business-and-ip-centre/articles/what-can-you-trademark-in-the-uk

...

The Intellectual Property Office outlines what you can and can’t register as a trade mark:

Any new UK trade mark must be unique and can include the following:

• Words
• Sounds
• Logos
• Colours
• A combination of the above

Where it says colours, I presume that it would apply to a bespoke shade of a particular colour. There was a bit of a stooshie a while back between EasyJet and Orange (telecoms).
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2004/aug/16/newmedia.marketingandpr

As EasyGroup prepares for a battle with mobile phone company Orange over using the colour orange, the Easy empire has admitted a key chink in its armour - it does not own the trademark to the colour it uses across its multimillion pound businesses.

EasyGroup's founder, Stelios Haji-Ioannou, said the failure to register the Easy brand's shade of orange "may be an oversight" by his legal team.

All big groups, including Coca-Cola, Kodak, the Post Office and Cadbury's, register their colours as part of their overall brand protection plans but it has emerged today that the EasyGroup only got round to applying to trademark its colour in November last year.

But Mr Haji-Ioannou said he will not drop the colour for the launch of his low-cost mobile phone service, EasyMobile, and believes a compromise can be reached with Orange over how the colour is used.

Where it says "a combination of the above", presumably this could also be applied to a livery too, with the likes of First and Stagecoach having instantly recognisable combinations of colours.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Absolutely everything creative is protected by copyright by default, there is no need to register it or do anything else for it to apply. So a livery certainly is, yes.

One can relinquish one's rights to copyright on a particular creation, such as is done when releasing it under the GPL or if the designer of the livery transferred those rights to First, but if that is not done it exists by default and can be enforced if the owner (the creator) so wishes.

I'm no expert on these matters, but a quick search came up with this:

https://www.bl.uk/business-and-ip-centre/articles/what-can-you-trademark-in-the-uk


Where it says colours, I presume that it would apply to a bespoke shade of a particular colour. There was a bit of a stooshie a while back between EasyJet and Orange (telecoms).
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2004/aug/16/newmedia.marketingandpr


Where it says "a combination of the above", presumably this could also be applied to a livery too, with the likes of First and Stagecoach having instantly recognisable combinations of colours.

Thanks for the responses, the issue i see is how can this be implemented. How can one dictate what is a copy and what isn't. I fully understand how trademarking a corporate brand/logos can work, but i just can't see how it can be implemented with bus liveries, especially given that these days so many of them at times can be near identical.

Admittedly i have little knowledge on copyright laws, hence why i wasn't doubting if it was possible but rather questioning more how it's possible, if there was evidence of it and/or of a case where these "laws" had been implemented. So you'll have to excuse my slight ignorance on the matter!

 

[Busaholic]

I think two entirely different things are being talked about here. What First (and others) are concerned about is ''passing off'' i.e. a 'rogue' trader misrepresenting their (in this case) bus as being operated by First and thereby potentially doing harm to First's reputation: a mischievous defence lawyer might ask how that might be possible, but still. There have been many cases over the years where an established bus service has faced sudden competition and, if feeling suitably threatened, has retaliated by painting some of their buses in a version of the competitor's livery, but I've never heard of that particular aspect landing anyone in court, or even at a Traffic Commissioner's hearing, although that behaviour could represent part of a general case. Trying to prove 'copyright' in a bus livery i.e. somebody had plagiarised it I'd suggest might make some money for lawyers but would be unlikely to ever get anywhere imo. It's bad enough in literature or music to prove, otherwise Andrew Lloyd Webber would have been sued out of existence!

 

[RustySpoons]

...i just can't see how it can be implemented with bus liveries, especially given that these days so many of them at times can be near identical.

Ray Stenning/Best Impressions 'one design fits all' liveries spring to mind. I know he creates the brand/designs for operators, but does Best Impressions keep the trademark or is it passed on to the operators? I'm assuming the former, considering the similarity in the designs.

 

[GusB]

Thanks for the responses, the issue i see is how can this be implemented. How can one dictate what is a copy and what isn't. I fully understand how trademarking a corporate brand/logos can work, but i just can't see how it can be implemented with bus liveries, especially given that these days so many of them at times can be near identical.

Admittedly i have little knowledge on copyright laws, hence why i wasn't doubting if it was possible but rather questioning more how it's possible, if there was evidence of it and/or of a case where these "laws" had been implemented. So you'll have to excuse my slight ignorance on the matter!

Taking Stagecoach as an example - the application of their liveries is very distinctive, whether it was the original stripes, or beachball. It would be very difficult for any company to copy that using different colours and not be seen to be copying another company.

This may be interesting to some:
https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00001539146

It would seem that the Stagecoach stripes were trademarked, but only using orange, red and blue.

 

[carlberry]

Ray Stenning/Best Impressions 'one design fits all' liveries spring to mind. I know he creates the brand/designs for operators, but does Best Impressions keep the trademark or is it passed on to the operators? I'm assuming the former, considering the similarity in the designs.

Best Impressions keep their trade mark which is all they own, the trade marks for the businesses they do designs for are owned by the businesses themselves. The designs are copyright and the copyright may stay with Best Impressions or may pass to the business depending on the contracts.

 

[Busaholic]

Ray Stenning/Best Impressions 'one design fits all' liveries spring to mind. I know he creates the brand/designs for operators, but does Best Impressions keep the trademark or is it passed on to the operators? I'm assuming the former, considering the similarity in the designs.

But, by general consent, a particular livery can look great on one type of bus and not another: the general consent, however, does not extend to which is which.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Taking Stagecoach as an example - the application of their liveries is very distinctive, whether it was the original stripes, or beachball. It would be very difficult for any company to copy that using different colours and not be seen to be copying another company.

This may be interesting to some:
https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00001539146

It would seem that the Stagecoach stripes were trademarked, but only using orange, red and blue.

Then you have the Wheeler's livery, which arguably could pass as a copy of beachball!

 

[RustySpoons]

But, by general consent, a particular livery can look great on one type of bus and not another: the general consent, however, does not extend to which is which.

That could possibly explain this story, if true...

https://flic.kr/p/6uJpqj

Although to be fair I found the Starship brand tacky anyway and didn't like it on anything it was painted on...

 

[Mwanesh]

Dont you think some operators should at least try to paint buses they are disposing off into dealer white . Eddie Stobart do it well any truck for disposal the vinyls are removed it will just be in plain white. I know Mortons used to have a bus painted in Stagecoach colours when they did rail replacement for South West Trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then you have the Wheeler's livery, which arguably could pass as a copy of beachball!

It's nothing like Stagecoach beachball. Those "beachball" logos were a fad at one point and loads of companies have them (Stagecoach were by no means first). It'd have to be much more like the Stagecoach one to present any kind of issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That could possibly explain this story, if true...

https://flic.kr/p/6uJpqj

Although to be fair I found the Starship brand tacky anyway and didn't like it on anything it was painted on...

That's a pretty nasty livery anyway, but from a bit of Googling it is indeed very clearly designed for the swept roof of the Versa (or new-generation Solo, I guess) and looks utterly awful on a boxy bus.

 

[omnicity4659]

Dont you think some operators should at least try to paint buses they are disposing off into dealer white . Eddie Stobart do it well any truck for disposal the vinyls are removed it will just be in plain white. I know Mortons used to have a bus painted in Stagecoach colours when they did rail replacement for South West Trains.

Comes at a cost of thousands to repaint a bus, especially as it would bump up the price making it not ideal for smaller operators. Most bus companies don't have their own paint facilities either, so it would be contracted out... and that would cost the price of the bus itself!

Eddie Stobart trucks are white and red to begin with, their livery is just vinyl.

 

[krus_aragon]

Having read this thread, I just wanted to chime in and note that Copyrights and Trademarks are two different things. *

• Copyright is a protection given to creative works, such as books, films, or paintings.
• Trademarks are forms of branding that identify a product or company.

The level of artistic originality for a trademark is lower than that of copyright: you can't copyright simple, obvious things like the colour orange, but you can register it as a trademark. Some things, such as a logo, could be covered by both. But in this instance, when referring to vehicle liveries, I'm pretty sure that it's just trademarks that are relevant.


*There's also a third category: Patents, but they're not relevant to what patterns you paint on the outside of a bus.

 

[Stef434]

Sorry I mentioned it ..jesus

 

[Jordan Adam]

Sorry I mentioned it ..jesus

Nothing wrong with that, clearly it was a subject of interest given the replies.

Having read this thread, I just wanted to chime in and note that Copyrights and Trademarks are two different things. *

• Copyright is a protection given to creative works, such as books, films, or paintings.
• Trademarks are forms of branding that identify a product or company.

The level of artistic originality for a trademark is lower than that of copyright: you can't copyright simple, obvious things like the colour orange, but you can register it as a trademark. Some things, such as a logo, could be covered by both. But in this instance, when referring to vehicle liveries, I'm pretty sure that it's just trademarks that are relevant.


*There's also a third category: Patents, but they're not relevant to what patterns you paint on the outside of a bus.

Perhaps i've been a bit poor with my explanation/wording earlier in the thread. However this was along the sorts of lines i was thinking.

 

[Busaholic]

Having read this thread, I just wanted to chime in and note that Copyrights and Trademarks are two different things. *

• Copyright is a protection given to creative works, such as books, films, or paintings.
• Trademarks are forms of branding that identify a product or company.

The level of artistic originality for a trademark is lower than that of copyright: you can't copyright simple, obvious things like the colour orange, but you can register it as a trademark. Some things, such as a logo, could be covered by both. But in this instance, when referring to vehicle liveries, I'm pretty sure that it's just trademarks that are relevant.


*There's also a third category: Patents, but they're not relevant to what patterns you paint on the outside of a bus.

Absolutely.

I can't cite the case or the sources because I wasn't paying enough attention, but the bare bones were that a confectionery company had a well-known chocolate bar with its own 'trademark' branding and they were claiming, in various courts in various jurisdictions, that a rival company had imitated their branding, colours etc in an attempt to mislead a section of the general public by 'passing off.' The bit I do remember reading is that, eight years later and at a cost of millions in lawyers' and experts' fees, the company bringing the claim has lost, without chance of appeal. It's an area to only get into if you've bottomless pockets, a huge sense of injustice and, frankly, you've lost your marbles!

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

This is an interesting thread and while I am not sure about the legalities of what is being discussed, it has made me wonder in the past if Lothian have given certain comapnies permission to use buses in service, with Lothian livery (modified or not) on the road. With the Lothian name removed of course.

Example is http://www.derbybusdepot.co.uk/photos/trent/TRENT39.JPG (not my picture) and then what if the livery colour is different but the design is the same - https://www.flickr.com/photos/busmanscotland/17222341776 (not my pic)

I would assume Lothian would have been asked but... In a fatal accident, pictures that circulate on the web might initially be picked up as being the former company if the livery is the same, similar or in some cases "borrowed" from other operators (not saying that is happening in this post though)

 

[Busaholic]

This is an interesting thread and while I am not sure about the legalities of what is being discussed, it has made me wonder in the past if Lothian have given certain comapnies permission to use buses in service, with Lothian livery (modified or not) on the road. With the Lothian name removed of course.

Example is http://www.derbybusdepot.co.uk/photos/trent/TRENT39.JPG (not my picture) and then what if the livery colour is different but the design is the same - https://www.flickr.com/photos/busmanscotland/17222341776 (not my pic)

I would assume Lothian would have been asked but... In a fatal accident, pictures that circulate on the web might initially be picked up as being the former company if the livery is the same, similar or in some cases "borrowed" from other operators (not saying that is happening in this post though)

I've always been led to understand that it's the legal ownership on the side of the bus that's the important thing to change, and failure to do so could be VERY expensive, one way and another.

 

[SCH117X]

When Stagecoach took over a First operation they subsequently sold a number of vehicles to other operators without them being repainted. Recall a picture taken in Wetherby of a line up of what appeared to be three First vehicles but only one was actually in use by First West Yorkshire.

 

[pdeaves]

I know Mortons used to have a bus painted in Stagecoach colours when they did rail replacement for South West Trains

That MAY have been painted like that for the SWT contract (in a similar way that some freight locomotives are painted in the customers' liveries).

Stagecoach were by no means first

True, very true. One's in Perth and the other's in Aberdeen... (sorry!)