Copper Signal Wires

[danfitz123]

One of the main costs to network rail is cable theft. They are targeted due to the copper in them. Just wondering.. Is their not a cheaper alternative to copper that is just as good a conductor.

 

[dcsprior]

One of the main costs to network rail is cable theft. They are targeted due to the copper in them. Just wondering.. Is their not a cheaper alternative to copper that is just as good a conductor.

It depends what is meant by "just as good a conductor"

• For a conductor of a certain diameter, copper conducts better than anything except silver
• For a conductor of a certain weight, aluminium conducts better (as do a few other metals which would be unsuitable due to them being flamable and/or reacting violently with air/water)

I'm guessing here, but perhaps in signalling applications, the fact that there's multiple different conductors, each needing to be insulated from each other, means that the ability to use a thin wire (due to better condutivity per cross-sectional area) is the most important thing?

 

[Flying Snail]

One of the main costs to network rail is cable theft. They are targeted due to the copper in them. Just wondering.. Is their not a cheaper alternative to copper that is just as good a conductor.

No, if there was do you really think anybody would be using copper?.

It is the demand for use as a electrical conductor that is driving the copper price.

Long term fibre-optics are a viable alternative for a lot of the current uses of copper wire but it is not a case of slotting in a length of fibre optic in place of copper, the whole system needs replacing to one designed to use it and it is only going to be financially justified as part of necessary signalling renewal projects. There is also the complexity that while FO is well suited to replacing the data aspects of signalling it cannot replce the power transmission function, signals, points and other lineside equipment need power and that has to be fed with conductive wiring.

Sadly short of NR hiring sniper squads to roam the network "neutralising" any unauthorised persons on rail lines there is no easy fix. Personally I think this would be an excellent option but I imagine the legal types and human rights types might disagree.

 

[dcsprior]

Sadly short of NR hiring sniper squads to roam the network "neutralising" any unauthorised persons on rail lines there is no easy fix. Personally I think this would be an excellent option but I imagine the legal types and human rights types might disagree.

Perhaps sentencing based on the value of the loss (to the TOC, NR, and the economy as a whole) caued by the delay rather than the value of what was stolen would help.

I imagine costs can easily run into the £100k-£1m mark, which is at the bank-robbing end of the theft scale - but the cable thieves probably only steal something worth a thousand or so, so are sentenced as petty thieves. Presumably if they were sentenced similar to bank-robbers, there'd probably be a reduction.

It is the demand for use as a electrical conductor that is driving the copper price.

Presumably after each copper theft, NR have to buy new copper wires... much of which has actually been recycled from existing copper - some of which (via a convoluted supply chain) is what was stolen from them in the first place.

 

[DXMachina]

I used to think the best solution was to massively increase the signalling voltage, until it was pointed out that copper thieves have been stealing live OHLE without getting roasted for a while now (dont know how and don't want to)

 

[sarahj]

When the OHLE went up on the ECML in Newcastle, a lot of the signaling cable went fibre optic. Problem was, it just looks like normal wire on the outside, so the scum would cut, see its plastic and move on. Meanwhile the cable was still cut and the system went down.
To rejoin was also a lot of work.

 

[Mugby]

NR doesn't do itself any favours in rgard to cable theft.

Unfortunately and perhaps unavoidably, there are thousands of miles of cable just lying there on the lineside in public view. It's virtually an open invitation.

All that's missing is a notice saying 'Come and pinch this'

 

[danfitz123]

What do they use in Europe. Or are people just more respectable over there.

 

[Swirlz]

Probably doesn't make any difference what material they use.

If they use copper, it will be damaged, nicked and sold on.

If they use, say, fibre optic cables, they will be damaged, probably worse than copper cables would be, abandoned and another area that uses copper will be targeted.

Causes damage either way. Criminals involved in this type of theft are usually opportunistic and won't realise it's worthless material until the damage has been caused.

ANY railway cables should be buried underground.

 

[asylumxl]

Causes damage either way. Criminals involved in this type of theft are usually opportunistic and won't realise it's worthless material until the damage has been caused.

If that was the case they wouldn't get away with it so often, and certainly would never get away with stealing live OHLE.

It is a highly organised crime.

 

[michael769]

Copper and aluminium are the only suitable metals, both are worth quite a bit for scrap.

Fibre optic cannot carry power, so while it could theoretically replace the signalling cables, you would not eliminate electrical cable entirely.

Burying cables wold not help as they have to come above ground to connect to signals and other plant, and it is these places that the thiefs already seem to target. The only viable solution is to increase penalties and enforcement, they only do it because they know that the chances of getting caught are very low.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

with the proliferation of LED signal heads, surely someone could come up with a low energy version that still meets the required standards but that can be run off a battery (or set of them) that are charged by both a solar panel and a small wind turbine that can be either mounted on the same post or on another one a few feet away...

 

[Cherry_Picker]

What do they use in Europe. Or are people just more respectable over there.

How about option three: We tend not to hear about cable thefts on the continent because it generally isn't newsworthy enough to be reported on an international level?

Five minutes on Google finds a report that copper theft from the railways is rife in France.

And Germany.
And Italy.
And Spain.
And Holland.

 

[danfitz123]

I suppose you're right. We don't tell France about our cable thefts. I do agree with harsher punishment. Had it been private property (i.e someones lovely garden gnome) I think the punishment would be greater.

 

[ainsworth74]

Had it been private property (i.e someones lovely garden gnome) I think the punishment would be greater.

The railway is private property.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I'm not sure what you mean by the garden gnome comments either. What punishments are you on about? If the police catch cable thieves then they will hammer them.
Last Christmas half a dozen blokes got five years each for nicking cable across Birmingham.

 

[DarloRich]

. Had it been private property (i.e someones lovely garden gnome) I think the punishment would be greater.

what on earth are you talking about? The police and CPS are cracking down hard on cable theft gangs. There is a task force making great strides to eradicate this crime. Sentences are in the range of 3-5 years normally. You are simply showing yourself up.

 

[danfitz123]

I'm not sure what you mean by the garden gnome comments either. What punishments are you on about? If the police catch cable thieves then they will hammer them.
Last Christmas half a dozen blokes got five years each for nicking cable across Birmingham.

Sorry. I meant to say enforcement needs to be improved. Like some have said. Wires are visable all over the network.

 

[DarloRich]

ANY railway cables should be buried underground.

Burying them is fine until something goes wrong, then you have a much bigger problem in digging them out and repairing them. In any event all you do is make the surface access points to the cable runs the target.

 

[Mugby]

Burying them is fine until something goes wrong, then you have a much bigger problem in digging them out and repairing them. In any event all you do is make the surface access points to the cable runs the target.

That is true, a lot of cable troughing work has been done, especially in connection with the new signalling centres but it's still no deterrent.

Some of the thieves are quite ambitious and of course the more they intend to steal, the heavier and more unwieldy it becomes.
I remember a BTP officer telling us once that they had caught some theives one night who had turned up with a Land Rover and their intention was to cut the cable and use the vehicle to pull out about a quarter of a mile of cable from the troughing!

 

[ian959]

with the proliferation of LED signal heads, surely someone could come up with a low energy version that still meets the required standards but that can be run off a battery (or set of them) that are charged by both a solar panel and a small wind turbine that can be either mounted on the same post or on another one a few feet away...

Already done in Australia - many signals on the Trans Australian Railway are already powered this way and I believe it is pretty much routine anywhere outside of populated areas.

In populated areas, the signalling cable is generally buried underground in good quality tubing with only the direct connections to the signals and equipment boxes visible above ground. We don't seem to have too many issues with cable theft, at least not on my side of the country. These connections could just as easily be hidden inside posts and so on.

 

[Bald Rick]

with the proliferation of LED signal heads, surely someone could come up with a low energy version that still meets the required standards but that can be run off a battery (or set of them) that are charged by both a solar panel and a small wind turbine that can be either mounted on the same post or on another one a few feet away...

Well yes, but this doesn't help points motors, points heaters, equipment room plant, track circuits, bonding cable and so on.

 

[Ploughman]

Burying them is fine until something goes wrong, then you have a much bigger problem in digging them out and repairing them. In any event all you do is make the surface access points to the cable runs the target.

Also the usual method of burying is by Mole Plough or similar.
That's fine if no other cables are present but becomes time consuming and expensive if other cables are present.
Bearing in mind that not all cables are detectable, recorded, known about or buried in a methodical way such as services under a pavement.
Any sort of cable can be found at any depth going at any angle.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Also the usual method of burying is by Mole Plough or similar.
That's fine if no other cables are present but becomes time consuming and expensive if other cables are present.
Bearing in mind that not all cables are detectable, recorded, known about or buried in a methodical way such as services under a pavement.
Any sort of cable can be found at any depth going at any angle.

Sorry I work in the gas industry, and the number of cables and pipes buried under pavements and roads that aren't mapped is not funny. You can cat and genny the area but still not find everything.

 

[jon0844]

What next, a drill going through into a railway tunnel that nobody knew about?

 

[michael769]

Sorry I work in the gas industry, and the number of cables and pipes buried under pavements and roads that aren't mapped is not funny. You can cat and genny the area but still not find everything.

Yeah there is a reason why most roadworks still involve a lot of manual excavation.....

 

[broadgage]

with the proliferation of LED signal heads, surely someone could come up with a low energy version that still meets the required standards but that can be run off a battery (or set of them) that are charged by both a solar panel and a small wind turbine that can be either mounted on the same post or on another one a few feet away...

If this was done, then I suspect that thieves would steal the wind turbines and solar panels instead.
There is a good market for such items.
And cables would still needed for other purposes.

Apart from better detection of the thieves, and harhser punishment when caught, I feel that a hardening of attitudes towards thieves that are hurt or killed would help a bit.

Instead of "oh that poor kid" lets have bit more of "ha ha they wont do that again will they"

I feel very sorry for railway staff or emergency services staff who have to deal with a gruesome mess when a thief is blown up or hit by a train.
But I do not feel sorry for the thief, serves them right.

This is not just a railway problem, increasing numbers of power failures and damaging power surges are caused by thieves attacking utilities equipment.
Again I am not sorry for the odd thief that gets blown up.

 

[Spaceflower]

Can they not be 'alarmed' in some way?

I also wonder how much metal theft cases are inside jobs.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

As soon as the power goes out then it's pretty clear what has happened but you have got to police over 20,000 miles of track twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. How do you do that? What happens when somebody steals cable ten miles from the nearest police station at 3am?