Conwy Valley Line

[Bletchleyite]

If you are travelling between Bangor and Betws you are better off on the T10 bus every 2 hours.

You're not really. It's a much lower quality service* than the train, less comfortable (though the views are as good!) and less predictable and reliable, plus you're doing what is basically a double back.

I would only use the T10 from Bangor if going to the Ogwen valley (for which it is very useful), or if the specific timings suited.

They do seem now to have added a Bangor to Pen y Pass service which didn't exist for a while and necessitated a bus to bus change at Caernarfon - that may make Bangor an easier route to getting to Snowdon via the most popular paths (Llanberis and Pyg/Miners/Crib Goch). Though the downside is that Bangor station is well out of town so if the connection isn't good the wait is rather boring, whereas an hour in Betws is quite pleasant.

* They did trial using something a bit like an Interdeck coach on it for a bit but now it's back to Enviro200s which are just rattly city buses however you tart them up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2024 ==

By the way, I noticed that usage of the line is very low, and down to almost zero on the upper section. Hopefully it will improve for the summer season, but there is a very long way to go to restore confidence.

It's been busy every time I've used it recently including this weekend. I think the use of 197s really improves the feel - it now no longer feels old and forgotten, it feels rather Swiss in fact. Demand will tail off south of Betws though.

 

[SandsofEss]

Another data point for busyness here, having travelled this weekend (southbound on Saturday, northbound on Sunday). The latter service was standing room only upon arrival at Betws. My first time on a 197, but I was very impressed - leaps and bounds better than 150s.

Re: integration. I was surprised that the first Ffestiniog Railway service of the day was timetabled to arrive at Blaenau just a few minutes after the northbound train left. Perhaps naively, I would have assumed it would be relatively straightforward for the FR to timetable its services to better connect with the mainline.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Re: integration. I was surprised that the first Ffestiniog Railway service of the day was timetabled to arrive at Blaenau just a few minutes after the northbound train left. Perhaps naively, I would have assumed it would be relatively straightforward for the FR to timetable its services to better connect with the mainline.

I'm led to believe (anecdotally) they now deliberately miss (or at least don't care) to avoid having to deal with people who miss connections and are somewhat irate about it. This is a massive shame, but the FfR/WHR are now very much in the business of selling railtours, not journeys, so I can sort of see why they do.

 

[SandsofEss]

I'm led to believe (anecdotally) they now deliberately miss (or at least don't care) to avoid having to deal with people who miss connections and are somewhat irate about it. This is a massive shame, but the FfR/WHR are now very much in the business of selling railtours, not journeys, so I can sort of see why they do.

Oh that is a huge shame. I spent a joyous week at Campbells Cottage in 2015, and really valued how much the FR felt like an integral part of the local public transport system.

Of course, whatever it takes to survive, but a crying shame if that's no longer the case.

 

[Llandudno]

You're not really. It's a much lower quality service* than the train, less comfortable (though the views are as good!) and less predictable and reliable, plus you're doing what is basically a double back.

I would only use the T10 from Bangor if going to the Ogwen valley (for which it is very useful), or if the specific timings suited.

They do seem now to have added a Bangor to Pen y Pass service which didn't exist for a while and necessitated a bus to bus change at Caernarfon - that may make Bangor an easier route to getting to Snowdon via the most popular paths (Llanberis and Pyg/Miners/Crib Goch). Though the downside is that Bangor station is well out of town so if the connection isn't good the wait is rather boring, whereas an hour in Betws is quite pleasant.

* They did trial using something a bit like an Interdeck coach on it for a bit but now it's back to Enviro200s which are just rattly city buses however you tart them up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2024 ==



It's been busy every time I've used it recently including this weekend. I think the use of 197s really improves the feel - it now no longer feels old and forgotten, it feels rather Swiss in fact. Demand will tail off south of Betws though.

The original poster was complaining about poor connections FROM Bangor onto Conwy Valley trains to Betws hence the suggestion that the direct T10 bus from Bangor to Betws is better…

 

[izvor]

I don't know what times you travelled but if you travel on the right trains you will find them to be full and standing between Betws and Llandudno.

It's been busy every time I've used it recently including this weekend. I think the use of 197s really improves the feel - it now no longer feels old and forgotten, it feels rather Swiss in fact. Demand will tail off south of Betws though.

This is very good to hear. I must admit I was travelling/observing in February, and only for a few days, but I did want to get a feel of the area outside of the peak season. The line was definitely busier on the lower (i.e. northern) section. The worst loadings were on/off the 0830-ish arrival and departure at Blaenau: 1 alighting and 3 boarding, on a weekday. Considering that there is no parallel bus service, and that Blaenau's only other external public transport is the hourly T22 electric bus to Porthmadog, there is a long way to go to regain the local traffic that was lost during the days and weeks of bustitution due to the weather- and stock-related problems. Having good loadings during the 3 or 4 peak months of the year is good but not sufficient to secure a (socially) viable future.

And agreed, the 197s give a good ride and are hopefully able to cope with the line's operating challenges.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it may just be that the actual demand to travel to Blaenau for 0830 is low - how many cars doing that on the road would also be interesting. It's a thought I've had before - the blind "every three hours" timetable isn't necessarily the best approach for a line like this - in particular there's no real provision for people who start work around 0830-0900 in Llandudno (which most of the work being retail/tourism a lot of people will). I think it needs some thought (I've proposed a timetable in Speculative before that had one fewer round trip per day but was potentially more useful, though I can't find the thread now), but I also seem to recall (unlike the Cambrian) TfW are interested in improving the frequency which may also provide a solution.

 

[John Luxton]

I'm led to believe (anecdotally) they now deliberately miss (or at least don't care) to avoid having to deal with people who miss connections and are somewhat irate about it. This is a massive shame, but the FfR/WHR are now very much in the business of selling railtours, not journeys, so I can sort of see why they do.

In 2023 I used the mid morning Conwy Valley line service to connect with the FR on the days that the 11:40 runs from Blaenau. Connection is a bit tight at BF but it worked in June and in October. There was more waiting around at BF on the return trip though. Could have done with an extra 30 minutes in Porthmadog. But it does work. I was on Wales Explorer and Coasts and Peaks Rovers when I did it. - Intend to try it again in the next few weeks. Makes a change from driving and I can have a few pints in Spooner's! It was being able to do this trip which led me to drop my grumbles about the "Experience" focused timetable now favoured by the FWHR.

Anyone planning to use the link should consult the main timetable which is rather hidden at the bottom of the FWHR timetable page. it should be much more prominent.

FWHR Master Timetable 2024

 

[izvor]

I also seem to recall (unlike the Cambrian) TfW are interested in improving the frequency which may also provide a solution.

I hope you are right. It does seem unfortunate that, now NR have invested huge amounts in (hopefully) weatherproofing the infrastructure, the service offered is still so minimal.

 

[Krokodil]

in particular there's no real provision for people who start work around 0830-0900 in Llandudno (which most of the work being retail/tourism a lot of people will).

The journey home is of more concern. Arriving at 07:40 for a job starting at 09:00 is bad enough, but if you finish at 17:00 you'll be hanging around for two hours.

That said, if a two-train timetable ever happened I'd sooner that the passing of the two at Llanrwst loop took place just before 09:00, for the benefit of kids going to Ysgol Dyffryn Conwy. Get them into the habit of using public transport and you could have customers for life. It doesn't get rid of the hanging around for people going to Llandudno in the morning, but on the flip side those with jobs in Bangor or Rhyl would benefit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The journey home is of more concern. Arriving at 07:40 for a job starting at 09:00 is bad enough, but if you finish at 17:00 you'll be hanging around for two hours.

Indeed. In previous timetables there has been a "permanent replacement bus" circuit to deal with that issue. That was removed when the commercial X1 started, but was never reinstated. There is the 19 down the other side of the valley which will help some, but even that doesn't have a Llandudno departure between 1620 and 1835 which is useless for anyone working a 9/5(:30) day - it really does seem to need a bit of thought.

 

[Llandudno]

Indeed. In previous timetables there has been a "permanent replacement bus" circuit to deal with that issue. That was removed when the commercial X1 started, but was never reinstated. There is the 19 down the other side of the valley which will help some, but even that doesn't have a Llandudno departure between 1620 and 1835 which is useless for anyone working a 9/5(:30) day - it really does seem to need a bit of thought.

There is a number 19 bus at 1715 from Llandudno as far as Llanrwst operating via Trefiew

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a number 19 bus at 1715 from Llandudno as far as Llanrwst operating via Trefiew

Not according to the timetable on bustimes.org there isn't! 1620 and 1835.

Edit: Looks like bustimes.org has got in a twist as according to Llew Jones' site it's numbered 5 on some days of the week?!

19 - Llandudno - Cwm Penmachno via Llanrwst, Betws y Coed

Llew Jones

bustimes.org

 

[Llandudno]

Not according to the timetable on bustimes.org there isn't! 1620 and 1835.

Edit: Looks like bustimes.org has got in a twist as according to Llew Jones' site it's numbered 5 on some days of the week?!

19 - Llandudno - Cwm Penmachno via Llanrwst, Betws y Coed

Llew Jones

bustimes.org

Indeed, why the heck it’s numbered 5 when Arriva run various number 5’s that don’t go anywhere near Llanrwst!

It is extremely confusing but according to the Llew Jones website it appears as though the 1715 runs as follows:

Mondays-Thursdays School/College Days
Fridays-Saturdays all year

Not convinced that is entirely accurate either!

Is it any wonder bus patronage is dwindling!

 

[Krokodil]

We'll have to see what changes bus franchising bring. Maybe there will be some coordination at last.

 

[Russel]

Not according to the timetable on bustimes.org there isn't! 1620 and 1835.

Edit: Looks like bustimes.org has got in a twist as according to Llew Jones' site it's numbered 5 on some days of the week?!

19 - Llandudno - Cwm Penmachno via Llanrwst, Betws y Coed

Llew Jones

bustimes.org

Given the state of bus services in North Wales, I'm not surprised bustimes can't keep up!

Outside of the Snowdon Sherpa network, the whole area seems like disorganized chaos when it comes to bus services.

 

[Llandudno]

Yep, pretty much!

Well it certainly appears that way, virtually no timetables or route numbers at bus stops, no printed timetables, little or no marketing of bus services, scruffy poorly presented vehicles, very few bus stations or official rail/bus interchange hubs….

Arriva website virtually unfathomable, some County Council’s websites have little or no public transport information.

 

[WAB]

I'm led to believe (anecdotally) they now deliberately miss (or at least don't care) to avoid having to deal with people who miss connections and are somewhat irate about it. This is a massive shame, but the FfR/WHR are now very much in the business of selling railtours, not journeys, so I can sort of see why they do.

It's not as simple as it used to be to have connections.

• They've now got to allow for a long enough break at the terminus for passengers who will now mostly be getting the same train back rather than being able to get a later train back as it was.
• They need to time things carefully to ensure that locomotive, carriage and crew diagrams are as efficient as possible to minimise coal use and make the best use of limited volunteer resources.
• Platform capacity is limited at Porthmadog as you have the Welsh Highlands to worry about too, and there is also the influence of paths across Cae Pawb too to worry about.
• Timing departures (and arrival of the return workings) to what the passenger wants is now essential.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2024 ==

Yep, pretty much!

Well it certainly appears that way, virtually no timetables or route numbers at bus stops, no printed timetables, little or no marketing of bus services, scruffy poorly presented vehicles, very few bus stations or official rail/bus interchange hubs….

Arriva website virtually unfathomable, some County Council’s websites have little or no public transport information.

If East Yorkshire can produce clear timetables and maps for an obscure twice-a-day country route, there really is no excuse for not setting up a North Wales Transport Authority website; even if all they do is employ two people to sit in the basement of the council offices in Caernarfon and tweet, update timetables and produce pretty maps for a Passenger Tech website. TrawsCymru is leading the way on this. Although the maps and timetables are still not optimal, the website is a lot better every time I return to it.

Indeed, why the heck it’s numbered 5 when Arriva run various number 5’s that don’t go anywhere near Llanrwst!

It is extremely confusing but according to the Llew Jones website it appears as though the 1715 runs as follows:

Mondays-Thursdays School/College Days
Fridays-Saturdays all year

Not convinced that is entirely accurate either!

Is it any wonder bus patronage is dwindling!

I'm not quite sure how prospective passengers are supposed to work out what services are running and when! This is why attempts to simplify timetables and routes on TrawsCymru are to be welcomed; hopefully the same can be applied to the core local routes like the 3 (Pwllheli to Porthmadog) in due course.


But none of this really helps to encourage passengers to complete their rail journey by bus if the protections afforded on the railway (e.g., advance ticket acceptance in the event of missed connections, taxis/accommodation etc.) are not afforded when using connecting buses.

 

[williamn]

Timing departures (and arrival of the return workings) to what the passenger wants is now essential.

Unless they’re travelling by rail it seems, in which case their needs can be ignored!

It seems like none of these are insurmountable when you have a blank sheet of paper to draw up a timetable, and in some cases just require tweaks of 10/15 minutes to enable connections.