Convoluted journey with only one timed train

[trainophile]

I have a through Advance ticket Dunfermline to Preston, and the only timed train is the TPE from Motherwell to Preston. On the Scotrail legs it’s got me changing at Haymarket and Bellshill.

Would it be okay to take a Scotrail direct from Haymarket to Motherwell? The connections aren’t detailed on the ticket at all. It reads “Specified TPE trains and connections only”.

 

[Watershed]

In theory, you must always take the exact booked trains on an Advance ticket.

In practice, if you have an e-ticket then it will be obvious to staff whether or not you are on your booked non-reservable trains, since the entire itinerary is listed. ScotRail staff, and particularly those on local stopping services, are less likely to be concerned about this than long-distance TOC staff.

By contrast, if you have a paper ticket, it's likely that only your reserved trains will appear and so you are effectively free to take any reasonable non-reservable service to get to and from your booked trains.

 

[trainophile]

Thank you, yes it’s a paper ticket. Just had it glanced at on an earlier than itinerised train from DFE and nothing said.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2023 ==

Another advantage of paper tickets!

 

[yorkie]

I have a through Advance ticket Dunfermline to Preston, and the only timed train is the TPE from Motherwell to Preston. On the Scotrail legs it’s got me changing at Haymarket and Bellshill.

Next time, use a booking site that allows you to tailor the itinerary you desire.

Would it be okay to take a Scotrail direct from Haymarket to Motherwell? The connections aren’t detailed on the ticket at all. It reads “Specified TPE trains and connections only”.

It's a grey area.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2023 ==

Thank you, yes it’s a paper ticket. Just had it glanced at on an earlier than itinerised train from DFE and nothing said.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2023 ==

Another advantage of paper tickets!

What you may perceive as an apparent loophole is not actually an advantage of using a paper ticket; just because the ticket doesn't state the full itinerary doesn't mean the staff can't require you to stick to the itinerary, where appropriate.

Similarly just because an itinerary is displayed on a ticket, doesn't mean staff should/would insist that the specific trains suggested must be taken if alternative appropriate services are used.

At the end of the day the itinerary does still exist, and even if you denied you held a copy of the itinerary anywhere on your person, that doesn't stop staff looking it up.

The best thing to do is to avoid the grey area by booking the correct itinerary in the first place; the forums site is an example of a website which will allow you to do this.

 

[trainophile]

I used Trainsplit, does that count?

 

[Bread & cheese]

In the Advance ticketing section of the internal National Rail website, there are Frequently Asked Questions about Travelling with Advance Tickets, including the following:

Q: Can a passenger travel on any train if they are booked on specific TOC’s Advance ticket e.g. “XC &Connections”?
A: As a connecting TOC into the main TOC shown in the routing on the ticket – yes.
As a replacement for the main TOC shown on the ticket - no*. (However, during times of disruption, retail and on-train staff should use their discretion, as advised by their Control office).

*Please note that “TOC &Connections” tickets are not the same as ‘dedicated’ tickets and should be treated differently. “TOC &Connections” simply means the majority of the journey should take place on the TOC shown plus any other local connections.

Apologies, my iPad won't let me put the above in a quote box.

I won't provide a link to the website, because from 26 September access to the internal National Rail website will be restricted to recognised IP addresses. (There was a staff brief to this effect in August.)

 

[xotGD]

just because the ticket doesn't state the full itinerary doesn't mean the staff can't require you to stick to the itinerary, where appropriate.

How would staff know what the full itinerary is if all the passenger has is the Advance and the Compulsory Reservation for the long distance leg?

 

[yorkie]

How would staff know what the full itinerary is if all the passenger has is the Advance and the Compulsory Reservation for the long distance leg?

By looking up the CTR booking reference number, details of the booking can be accessed.

I am also not sure it's wise to deny knowledge of and/or refuse the disclose the itinerary, if anyone is suggesting that?

I used Trainsplit, does that count?

Is there a reason why you didn't or couldn't generate the desired itinerary?

Whether or not, or the extent to which, the itinerary is binding is not in any way dependent on the fulfillment method; if anyone is suggesting this is the case they are mistaken.

 

[najaB]

At the end of the day the itinerary does still exist, and even if you denied you held a copy of the itinerary anywhere on your person, that doesn't stop staff looking it up.

Is the itinerary associated with a specific ticket stored anywhere other than the systems of the particular retailer? If so then that must be an absolutely massive database, and if not then since in most cases you can generate different itineraries that connect to the reserved train by using the more/less connection time option, the most that a staff member would be able to see is the recommended itinerary.

 

[Paul Kelly]

What you may perceive as an apparent loophole is not actually an advantage of using a paper ticket; just because the ticket doesn't state the full itinerary doesn't mean the staff can't require you to stick to the itinerary, where appropriate.

I think I may be getting out of date in my knowledge - is this a new restriction? I thought the previous rule was that it was OK to take alternative connecting services if they weren't specified on the ticket (because they weren't reservable). And I assumed the fact that non-reservable services are specified on e-tickets did not cause a material change to this rule. Was I wrong?

By looking up the CTR booking reference number, details of the booking can be accessed.

If you bought the advance at a booking office, I don't think it would have a CTR record? Would it then be unenforceable to follow the exact itinerary on unreservable trains?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2023 ==

Is the itinerary associated with a specific ticket stored anywhere other than the systems of the particular retailer? If so then that must be an absolutely massive database

Yes, at least for bookings that are fulfilled by ToD or e-ticket/m-ticket. I am not sure about sales where the ticket is locally printed (see my comment above!). It is called Live Sales Management (LSM) and the current incarnation seems to run on Amazon Web Services: https://www.nasstar.com/hub/customer-success/rail-delivery-group-lsm-risk-removal

edit: fix description of which bookings are in LSM database

 

[yorkie]

I think I may be getting out of date in my knowledge - is this a new restriction? I thought the previous rule was that it was OK to take alternative connecting services if they weren't specified on the ticket (because they weren't reservable). And I assumed the fact that non-reservable services are specified on e-tickets did not cause a material change to this rule. Was I wrong?

It can be grey area but as a general rule I would say if you don't have a reservation, you should be fine to take any appropriate services.

What is 'appropriate' may be subject to interpretation, in particular whether it means a different route can be taken.

What I have an issue with is the claim that paper tickets provide greater validity / flexibility than e-tickets; the contract is not varied by the fulfilment method and therefore I reject this.

Furthermore, some members book itineraries they are not particularly happy with and then ask if they can travel on a different itinerary; this doesn't make a lot of sense (unless something has changed since the time of booking) when the desired itinerary should be possible to select in the first place; in some cases the same people post multiple threads asking the same thing (albeit for different journeys, but the same principle).

If you bought the advance at a booking office, I don't think it would have a CTR record? Would it then be unenforceable to follow the exact itinerary on unreservable trains?

Yes I would guess so, I suppose in this case a passenger could claim they can't remember the itinerary.

It seems a lot of effort to do this, when the desired itinerary should have been possible to be selected at the time of purchase!

 

[OscarH]

Yes, at least for bookings that are fulfilled by ToD or e-ticket/m-ticket. I am not sure about sales where the ticket is locally printed (see my comment above!). It is called Live Sales Management (LSM) and the current incarnation seems to run on Amazon Web Services: https://www.nasstar.com/hub/customer-success/rail-delivery-group-lsm-risk-removal

Pretty sure LSM doesn't apply to barcode tickets, just ToD

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It seems a lot of effort to do this, when the desired itinerary should have been possible to be selected at the time of purchase!

Could possibly be wrong, but reckon that many folk will just go with whatever itinerary is automatically generated by the ticket retailer they have used/chosen (Trainline or whomever) provided that (i) it's cheap (so the itinerary will probably involve advance(s)), (ii) it gets them to where there's wanting to go, on the appropriate day and at more or less the right time, and (iii) it's cheap (have I mentioned that already?) but only after booking do they maybe then realise what a convoluted and inflexible itinerary they're now committed to.

 

[Haywain]

Pretty sure LSM doesn't apply to barcode tickets, just ToD

That's correct. And not for tickets fulfilled by post either.

 

[yorkie]

Could possibly be wrong, but reckon that many folk will just go with whatever itinerary is automatically generated by the ticket retailer they have used/chosen (Trainline or whomever) provided that (i) it's cheap (so the itinerary will probably involve advance(s)), (ii) it gets them to where there's wanting to go, on the appropriate day and at more or less the right time, and (iii) it's cheap (have I mentioned that already?) ...

Yes absolutely

but only after booking do they maybe then realise what a convoluted and inflexible itinerary they're now committed to.

If it's convoluted then it's probably cheaper or faster and therefore changing route may not be straightforward.

I think the average person is going to follow the itinerary on an advance ticket but perhaps you had something in particular in mind?

What I had in mind is that this keeps cropping up e.g.

If you are unhappy with the itinerary you have 2 hours to cancel it without incurring any fees.

The cheap quota is not available on the fastest itinerary departing at 0939 and stepping back is required to obtain it......

It doesn't, but the expectation of an ordinary punter with an Advance is to follow their itinerary. Eking out extra bits of obscure validity is an enthusiast's game as the idea is that you specify what you want when you book and are given a price for it....

....If people want to request additional interchange time, I would advise booking through a site that has that option (or use a ticket office or telesales).

.... easier interchanges. But there are journey planners out there that will do these things if you put the required settings in yourself.

If you can plan a journey using the 'advanced options' on www.fastjp.com and find an itinerary that suits you, then you can buy a ticket for it from trainsplit.com, also using the same advanced settings, as it uses the same journey planner.

Just to give a few examples based on a quick search; it has cropped up many many times and my advice remains the same: I recommend obtaining the desired itinerary at the time of purchase.

And if anyone would like help with their purchase, ask us before purchasing.

That's not to say tickets aren't valid for alternative itineraries; sometimes it's clear-cut but at other times it can be a grey area but, either way, the validity does not change whether it's an e ticket or paper ticket.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Pretty sure LSM doesn't apply to barcode tickets, just ToD

Ah right, I was mistaken - have corrected my post above.

What I have an issue with is the claim that paper tickets provide greater validity / flexibility than e-tickets; the contract is not varied by the fulfilment method

Right, thanks for clarifying; that's what I thought and I was curious as to whether something had changed while I've been (to a certain extent) "away"!

What you may perceive as an apparent loophole is not actually an advantage of using a paper ticket

I would disagree with this point though. I think if you want to use an itinerary other than that displayed at the time of purchase it's a real advantage (especially for passengers who may not be so confident in asserting their contractual rights) to have no official itinerary stored with the ticket (or indeed stored anywhere in railway systems at all, depending on how the ticket was purchased). And I think this point is particularly relevant to the OP's case.

What is 'appropriate' may be subject to interpretation, in particular whether it means a different route can be taken.

Also true, but I suspect that in most of the cases where this happens the passenger's preferred itinerary would be less circuitous than the booked itinerary, so from that point of view it could be less likely to raise eyebrows, as long as it is not an obvious loophole. Although I appreciate whether or not it's a loophole might require some expert knowledge to ascertain and thus it's probably not a good idea to recommend it unconditionally - on this point I think I can see where you are coming from...

Furthermore, some members book itineraries they are not particularly happy with and then ask if they can travel on a different itinerary; this doesn't make a lot of sense

I can see how it happens. I think to a certain extent there is an onus on retailers to make it clear when an itinerary that is sub-optimal in terms of journey time, number of changes etc. is being offered. Someone very familiar with railway geography will likely be able to assess whether an itinerary is sub-optimal at a quick glance; others may take more time. Even a message like "Note: the itinerary you have selected is sub-optimal in terms of journey time; please review and confirm you are really happy with this before proceeding" might go a fair way to reducing the problem?

 

[trainophile]

To answer some observations above... at the time of booking I didn't know there was a direct service from Haymarket to Motherwell, I only found out when checking my train timings on departure day. For some reason I cannot now recreate the itinerary I was offered for the same really cheap price (£12.45 with railcard), using a random date in early November.

I did not specify any via or change at points when booking, I just booked the bargain price that was offered. Funnily enough if I put in the 'change at' points now I can recreate it, but I didn't do that when originally booking and Trainsplit found it anyway. I've just discovered that even cheaper tickets with just one change at Haymarket, and arriving at Preston two hours earlier are actually available, but they weren't offered so perhaps already fully sold out. Never mind, I'll know for next time!

Fortunately my journey passed off without incident. I didn't deviate from the booked TPE train time, and Scotrail guards didn't seem too bothered so long as I had a ticket to show them. At Dunfermline station there were a couple of presumably RPIs at the platform entrance, but again they just glanced at my ticket and happily waved me onto the just arriving 09:13 when my itinerary was for the 09:24. Of course they wouldn't know that from the ticket.

All points taken on board, I realise I was probably doing an illegal thing and I will take more trouble to book what I require next time. Thanks for all the comments and points of view.

 

[Bread & cheese]

Q: Can a passenger travel on any train if they are booked on specific TOC’s Advance ticket e.g. “XC &Connections”?
A: As a connecting TOC into the main TOC shown in the routing on the ticket – yes.

I don't think that you were doing anything illegal. To reiterate what I quoted post 8, you can use any train on your connecting TOC.

 

[trainophile]

I don't think that you were doing anything illegal. To reiterate what I quoted post 8, you can use any train on your connecting TOC.

I think the illegality may have been taking a direct service from Haymarket to Motherwell, rather than the one that would have involved changing at Bellshill. I did have over an hour to kill at Motherwell, which gave me an opportunity to explore the town for the first time, and very nice it is too! Station very handy for the shopping centre etc.

 

[xotGD]

If passengers want to catch an earlier train to the 'hub' then this should be encouraged, rather than being a potential invalid journey, since it reduces the chance of the connection onto the intercity service being missed therefore less risk of a delay repay payment being claimed.