Converting MK3s - Really Worth it?

[whhistle]

Have been thinking about the slow progress of the MK3 conversions.
Not including Chilterns now non-standard conversion (which incidently seemed to take a very short amount of time?), is it really worth changing them?

It's not about excluding those people who need the PRM mods, but more a question of whether time time/cost of conversion is worth it against buying new MK5 stock or looking at MK4 conversion to accept HST power.

From what I understood, adding tanks is fairly straight forward. Door mechanisms, not so much.

I guess a related question is how long do Scotrail, XC and GWR intend to keep the converted sets?
10 years maybe?

 

[yorksrob]

I think for 10-15 years, probably yes.

 

[hexagon789]

Have been thinking about the slow progress of the MK3 conversions.
Not including Chilterns now non-standard conversion (which incidently seemed to take a very short amount of time?), is it really worth changing them?

It's not about excluding those people who need the PRM mods, but more a question of whether time time/cost of conversion is worth it against buying new MK5 stock or looking at MK4 conversion to accept HST power.

From what I understood, adding tanks is fairly straight forward. Door mechanisms, not so much.

I guess a related question is how long do Scotrail, XC and GWR intend to keep the converted sets?
10 years maybe?

ISTR 2030 being mentioned, whether that is fixed, expected or what I'm not sure.

 

[chubs]

No, it's not.

Hence GA buying far more suitable and modern trains.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

No, it's not.

Hence GA buying far more suitable and modern trains.

There's a difference for those operating them as part of short HSTs vs what GA having a long lead in time for new units, it's comparing chalk and cheese

 

[xc170]

No, not worth it at all and the industry has known about the PRM deadline for long enough to do something more suitable...

 

[Geoff DC]

Has any manufacturer come up with something that is an improvement on the MK3s?

That is: from a passenger's perspective !!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, probably worthwhile, but we need to ensure the orders are put in in good time for replacements.

 

[hexagon789]

Has any manufacturer come up with something that is an improvement on the MK3s?

That is: from a passenger's perspective !!

In Britain/Ireland? I doubt it.

 

[XCTurbostar]

The Mk5s have yet to prove their comfort in passenger service (TPE) but I suspect rolling stock manufacturers aren't trying to match it because the industry is more focused on capacity..

 

[Bletchleyite]

Has any manufacturer come up with something that is an improvement on the MK3s?

That is: from a passenger's perspective !!

The Class 444.

 

[pt_mad]

Has any manufacturer come up with something that is an improvement on the MK3s?

That is: from a passenger's perspective !!

Depends on what the definition of improvement is? If you mean seat comfort then probably not, but as an all round train the 80x series meets the bill. It's also important to note that the industry are constrained by regulations and legislation as to the amount of padding seats can have, so the industry may never be able to build or fit a seat as squashy as the mk3s had ever again. The 80x class seat is the standard UK seat for 125mph now because it meets all modern new build standards.

 

[Hadders]

Depends on what the definition of improvement is? If you mean seat comfort then probably not, but as an all round train the 80x series meets the bill. It's also important to note that the industry are constrained by regulations and legislation as to the amount of padding seats can have, so the industry may never be able to build or fit a seat as squashy as the mk3s had ever again. The 80x class seat is the standard UK seat for 125mph now because it meets all modern new build standards.

Have you got a link to these regulations? We keep getting told stuff like this and while I don't doubt that there are regulations about seat construction I suspect something a bit more comfortable than the ironing board seats in the 700s for example, or the standard class seats in the GWR IETs could be fitted and comply with the regulations.

 

[cactustwirly]

Has any manufacturer come up with something that is an improvement on the MK3s?

That is: from a passenger's perspective !!

Yes, but unfortunately it isn't within the UK loading gauge

Although the Stadler FLIRTs are very good

 

[Northhighland]

Introducing new trains isn’t a picnic in the park either though. Look at the issues getting Mk5 stock working on both TransPennine and Caledonian sleeper.

Can’t think of a new stock intro that has been on time.

Think the whole set up around this needs reviewed. Something must be able to be done to smarten up procurement.

Also agree with previous poster. People hide behind regulation for poor decisions. Can’t see why a regulation would insist a seat has to uncomfortable....

 

[dgl]

The Class 444.

Agreed, the 444 is excellent, although the new first class less so.

 

[GrimShady]

Has any manufacturer come up with something that is an improvement on the MK3s?

That is: from a passenger's perspective !!

Mk 4

 

[pompeyfan]

I was speaking to a regular the other day, and he was told by Andy Mellors that the flat cloth being fitted to the refurbed desiros was due to new fire regulations that meant the old SWT covers no longer met new fire regulations.

I had my first trip on a 442 recently, and it was noisy and rattly but there was no where near as much sideways movement compared to a 444, but there was more vertical movement over the same bit of track.

 

[mde]

I was speaking to a regular the other day, and he was told by Andy Mellors that the flat cloth being fitted to the refurbed desiros was due to new fire regulations that meant the old SWT covers no longer met new fire regulations.

But yet, Camira are able to sell a compliant version of moquette to other TOCs. Something does seem a little off in that version of events!

 

[cjmillsnun]

The Class 444.

It's good, but not as good as a Mk3 in good order. The air con is too noisy for starters.

 

[yorksrob]

But yet, Camira are able to sell a compliant version of moquette to other TOCs. Something does seem a little off in that version of events!

Indeed. Sounds like flannel to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But yet, Camira are able to sell a compliant version of moquette to other TOCs. Something does seem a little off in that version of events!

It's First. They are doing it on the cheap, as usual.

AIUI, the near-identical (bar the pantograph) LNR 350s will be getting moquette.

 

[jopsuk]

Was it worth it? The leasing companies and Wabtec presented a proposal that appeared to offer value for money versus procurement of new stock for these services, in a time frame that was supposed to be better than any rolling stock manufacturer could offer, at the time, for new stock. Whilst the time estimates have proven to be wildly overoptimistic, it is noticeable eg the CAF hauled stock is running behind schedule, Bombardier are late with several orders, Hitachi had to bring in the Italian plant to fulfil 80x orders and Stadler are behind schedule.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Has any manufacturer come up with something that is an improvement on the MK3s?

That is: from a passenger's perspective !!

Yes, the Meridian.

 

[43096]

I was speaking to a regular the other day, and he was told by Andy Mellors that the flat cloth being fitted to the refurbed desiros was due to new fire regulations that meant the old SWT covers no longer met new fire regulations.

I had my first trip on a 442 recently, and it was noisy and rattly but there was no where near as much sideways movement compared to a 444, but there was more vertical movement over the same bit of track.

Mellors is a liar if that’s the case - as well as being an incompetent MD - as Northern have switched to using moquette on their fleet. Just a cover story for typical WorstGroup cost cutting.

 

[bastien]

Indeed. Sounds like flannel to me.

It sounds like flannel, but it looks more like carpet.


Sorry.

 

[yorksrob]

It sounds like flannel, but it looks more like carpet.


Sorry.

It had to be said

 

[route:oxford]

Has any manufacturer come up with something that is an improvement on the MK3s?

It's all very subjective...

I was rather fond of being on a 180 with just four coaches powered. (Sitting in the unpowered coach).

 

[w1bbl3]

Have you got a link to these regulations? We keep getting told stuff like this and while I don't doubt that there are regulations about seat construction I suspect something a bit more comfortable than the ironing board seats in the 700s for example, or the standard class seats in the GWR IETs could be fitted and comply with the regulations.

The fire performance of a seat is defined in BS EN 45545-2:2013+A1:2015 and BS EN 16989:2018. The standards are not as simple as you can only use say 15mm of foam but rather define the amount of smoke that may be given off, the toxicity of gasses released, the propagation of flame over a set time period and the susceptibility of the surface to ignition. A seat manufacturer would develop a seat, test it then assuming the design passes market it. However if the design does not pass then they have keep redesigning and testing the variants until they have a design that passes, the test programme will run into the hundreds of thousands of pounds so not something they would want to do lots of times.

Could a seat manufacturer develop a more comfortable compliant seat? of course it just might have different (lower) service life and/or a greater cost. The problem for train builders and refurbishers will be the time taken and cost for a new seat or covering to developed then tested vs going with an existing design and material. As the standards are relatively new the number of compliant products low then over time considering seating and coverings are competitive markets more options will appear.

 

[Non Multi]

The Mk3 upgrades should have been done years ago, perhaps during the MTU power car rebuilds in the mid 2000's. Might have provided a lifeline for Washwood Heath or York. Was something of an error by BREL not to have power doors and retention tanks from new.