Converting 3rd Rail to Overhead

[Recessio]

Question regarding Crossrail 2 - when (if) it happens, would the sections of it south of the river that are currently third-rail DC remain that way, or would it be converted to OHLE AC to match the north of the river (and presumably the new central core) section? I guess as some of the branches would still be shared with SWR (or whatever they'll be called in the future) that it would remain DC?

 

[yorksrob]

Ultimately we have far too much unelectrified railway in this country.

Precious funding should be spent addressing this, not replacing a perfectly adequate existing electrified system.

I would also place reconnecting communities to the railway network above replacing a perfectly adequate electrification system, higher in the hierarchy of uses for railway funding.

 

[mmh]

I hoped to make it clear this is a hyperthetical. Electrification of non-electrified lines is priority.

It really isn't. The superficial campaigning for it by rail enthusiasts, environmentalists and politicians, all with their own reasons for doing so, hasn't resulted in any significant electrification for decades.

It's just something that people need to be seen as being in favour of.

 

[yorksrob]

It really isn't. The superficial campaigning for it by rail enthusiasts, environmentalists and politicians, all with their own reasons for doing so, hasn't resulted in any significant electrification for decades.

It's just something that people need to be seen as being in favour of.

But it surely is, over replacing an existing electrification system.

 

[mmh]

But it surely is, over replacing an existing electrification system.

Oh, I don't agree with doing that.

Being a bit of a devil's advocate though, I'll question some of the reasoning some have given for 3rd rail electrifying places like Uckfield or Reading - Gatwick. "The DMUs from there could be used elsewhere." Electrify at enormous cost to be able to send a handful of elderly DMUs elsewhere? Better just to build some new DMUs for where they're needed. Plus it seems to be ignored that there'd need to be new EMUs to replace the DMUs on these newly electrified lines.

 

[bramling]

It really isn't. The superficial campaigning for it by rail enthusiasts, environmentalists and politicians, all with their own reasons for doing so, hasn't resulted in any significant electrification for decades.

It's just something that people need to be seen as being in favour of.

I suspect the biggest issue is that the public at large don’t really care about whether their train is electric or not, but they are more likely to care about some of the benefits electrification brings. So features like slightly quicker journeys, longer trains, probably more frequent trains, better reliability. However we are probably at the stage where most of the routes where these benefits would be felt most have already been electrified. Chiltern, Snow Hill lines and a bit more Manchester suburban is all I can readily think of where the flows are significant enough. Perhaps XC and Bristol/Exeter suburban if really pushing things.

 

[yorksrob]

Oh, I don't agree with doing that.

Being a bit of a devil's advocate though, I'll question some of the reasoning some have given for 3rd rail electrifying places like Uckfield or Reading - Gatwick. "The DMUs from there could be used elsewhere." Electrify at enormous cost to be able to send a handful of elderly DMUs elsewhere? Better just to build some new DMUs for where they're needed. Plus it seems to be ignored that there'd need to be new EMUs to replace the DMUs on these newly electrified lines.

Yes, well we have a healthy debate over that on here !

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It really isn't. The superficial campaigning for it by rail enthusiasts, environmentalists and politicians, all with their own reasons for doing so, hasn't resulted in any significant electrification for decades.

It's just something that people need to be seen as being in favour of.

The industry had years of battle to bring electric traction in over steam and the same process is repeating itself here over battery units. We just need some bold leadership to get on BEMUs as its the only viable way left for decarbonising the majority of the non electrified lines.

 

[Bald Rick]

Question regarding Crossrail 2 - when (if) it happens, would the sections of it south of the river that are currently third-rail DC remain that way, or would it be converted to OHLE AC to match the north of the river (and presumably the new central core) section? I guess as some of the branches would still be shared with SWR (or whatever they'll be called in the future) that it would remain DC?

Core 25kv, changeover to DC at Wimbledon, DC south of there.

 

[Falcon1200]

Or perhaps people have thought things through properly, and come to the conclusion that in many cases battery trains have the potential to bring all the benefits of electric traction at a much lower expenditure up front and in future maintenance and operation costs than full electrification of the infrastructure?

Once battery technology has developed further, given the disruption caused by 'wires down' incidents I can see currently electrified sections being dewired, eg in complex station areas, leaving trains powered and recharged on plain line sections.

 

[mmh]

Core 25kv, changeover to DC at Wimbledon, DC south of there.

Volt should be a capital V.

 

[Bald Rick]

Volt should be a capital V.

Thank you.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Good luck with the politics - spending billions in London & SE converting already electrified lines, yet not completing the GWML and MMLschemes? There might be a case for the SWML west of Basingstoke if the Reading and Exeter lines ever get 25kV AC.

Exactly.

 

[Recessio]

Core 25kv, changeover to DC at Wimbledon, DC south of there.

Thank you Bald Rick.

 

[slowroad]

Once battery technology has developed further, given the disruption caused by 'wires down' incidents I can see currently electrified sections being dewired, eg in complex station areas, leaving trains powered and recharged on plain line sections.

Interesting. I wonder where/when the first dewiring will take place? How about Severn Tunnel?

 

[Bald Rick]

Once battery technology has developed further, given the disruption caused by 'wires down' incidents I can see currently electrified sections being dewired, eg in complex station areas, leaving trains powered and recharged on plain line sections.

It’s an interestign point, but I don’t see that happening for a long time.

 

[Falcon1200]

It’s an interestign point, but I don’t see that happening for a long time.

Agree! A point made from innumerable wires down incidents affecting me personally, both at work and as a passenger, including one last year at Glasgow Central which caused absolute havoc.

 

[martin butler]

Wire down incidents is going to cause delay anyway, because of the danger of the live wire until such time as its isolated and cleared away, so having battery back up won't be much use except to clear effected services stuck by the problem,

Mixing 3rd rail and overhead, also creates issues with the lineside communications, I would imagine that if Reading to Basingstoke, and Basingstoke to Exeter were ever to be wired up, Basingstoke station and the lines to battledown, would have to be reconfigured to separate the Salisbury and Bournemouth lines, so that there were two separate lines,

 

[Bald Rick]

Wire down incidents is going to cause delay anyway, because of the danger of the live wire until such time as its isolated and cleared away, so having battery back up won't be much use except to clear effected services stuck by the problem,

There are many more types of incident where the power is off but the wires aren’t down. I reckon less than 1% of incidents that need the power off are “wires down”.

 

[brad465]

The closest third rail to overhead conversion we've come to in recent times appears to be Basingstoke-Southampton, as part of the now defunct "electric spine" project. Now with battery tech on the rise I doubt this would ever be pursued if freight locos can have batteries with enough range to get from Basingstoke to Southampton (should Reading-Basingstoke get OHLE).

The only "de-electrification" I can see happening is depots/sidings, as there is a combination of reduced maintenance and a much safer working environment for staff. Anywhere else creates rolling stock allocation complications where not everything on a given route has batteries. Southeastern appears to be the first major testbed for this, but even they will have to be careful, given the way 375/376/377/707 and to a lesser extent 395s share stabling spaces and particular routes, including for diversions.

 

[zwk500]

Wire down incidents is going to cause delay anyway, because of the danger of the live wire until such time as its isolated and cleared away, so having battery back up won't be much use except to clear effected services stuck by the problem,

How frequently do dewirements lead to lengthy all-line stops?

 

[Falcon1200]

Wire down incidents is going to cause delay anyway, because of the danger of the live wire until such time as its isolated and cleared away, so having battery back up won't be much use except to clear effected services stuck by the problem,

That depends on how and when repairs to the overheads can be done. On a line with no night shift traffic, once the damaged wires are cleared away and made safe BEMUs could operate the service, allowing repairs to be planned and equipment arranged and brought to site ready for the night shift.

 

[Bald Rick]

The closest third rail to overhead conversion we've come to in recent times appears to be Basingstoke-Southampton

Most of the North London Line was converted from third rail to OLE in various stages betwen the mid 90s and 2010.