Controversial opinion: The UK has a pretty decent rail system

[urbophile]

The UK in most instances fares better than the French and Germans. This one caught my eye - France and Germany worst satisfaction for punctuality & reliability!

Is that a subjective judgement though? French and Germans might just expect higher standards in the first place and so feel let down by a level of service which might still be better than the British.

 

[civ-eng-jim]

Is that a subjective judgement though? French and Germans might just expect higher standards in the first place and so feel let down by a level of service which might still be better than the British.

Agreed - Some aspects of the survey could be measured objectively (Punctuality is one). However I don't know how you would normalise these data for things which are subjective. I think it's more meaningful data than the anecdotes of Brits travelling experiences abroad though.

One could say that the aim of the railways is to serve the people who use it and the survey suggests that the UK railway is generally serving it's passengers better than the Germans (To pick one nation at random) are serving theirs.

Ultimately people's happiness, satisfaction, perception etc. are the only real measures of how good something is to the consumer - Who's to say the person A with a £1000 "iPhone Mark 10 Super Deluxe Turbo Core 3" who is difficult to please and is constantly frustrated with it because he's seen there's a Mark 11 out in Japan has a better product than person B with a Tamagotchi he's had since primary school?

going back to the Eurobarometer survey, without wishing to unfurl a list of European stereotypes, I'd be surprised if the Brits were less moany than Germans when it came to rail services!

 

[Mikey C]

I think the British rail network does overall a reasonable job. Not perfect, but sometimes the more positive elements do get overlooked. The high frequency, plus the very cheap advance fares. Yes some walk on fares are ludicrous, but at the same time many of the advance fares are a complete bargain.

 

[radamfi]

Is that a subjective judgement though? French and Germans might just expect higher standards in the first place and so feel let down by a level of service which might still be better than the British.

The UK has bus passenger surveys and they constantly show good satisfaction. There may be some debate as to whether British trains compare well to continental equivalents, but surely there's less of an argument about buses?!

 

[SHD]

From a French perspective and taking into account a "customer" standpoint, the UK network does indeed provide a pretty decent service.
But I cannot help at being outraged by the fares, especially for commuters. A Cambridge-London (50 km!) annual season ticket is almost £5,000.

 

[mrcheek]

From a French perspective and taking into account a "customer" standpoint, the UK network does indeed provide a pretty decent service.
But I cannot help at being outraged by the fares, especially for commuters. A Cambridge-London (50 km!) annual season ticket is almost £5,000.

£20 a day. sounds like damn good value to me for peak time travel

 

[radamfi]

From a French perspective and taking into account a "customer" standpoint, the UK network does indeed provide a pretty decent service.
But I cannot help at being outraged by the fares, especially for commuters. A Cambridge-London (50 km!) annual season ticket is almost £5,000.

It is rather more than 50 km (more like 90) but it is certainly true that you can get unlimited travel on all German trains (including high speed ICE trains) for much less than that.

 

[SHD]

£20 a day. sounds like damn good value to me for peak time travel

One-fourth of a £20,000/yr salary. "Damn good value"?...
Another example - A TfL Zones 1-6 yearly Travelcard is £2568. The equivalent in Paris is less than £900 (and you can claim half from your employer).

It is rather more than 50 km (more like 90) but it is certainly true that you can get unlimited travel on all German trains (including high speed ICE trains) for much less than that.

Ah, thank you for correction on distance.
Indeed that kind of money buys you more than a Bahncard100.

SNCF season ticket fares are higher than DB's but £5,000 buys you a yearly Paris-Caen (248 km) season ticket with a few pounds to spare for drinks at the station.

 

[radamfi]

One-fourth of a £20,000/yr salary. "Damn good value"?...

Hardly anyone earning so little would do that commute.

 

[SHD]

Hardly anyone earning so little would do that commute.

And... where would they live?

Let's take this job position as an example. I know, it is a little more than £20k:
https://britishlibrary.recruitment.northgatearinso.com/birl/pages/vacancy.jsf?latest=01001865

Considering the BL's situation, it really sounds like a Catch-22: go and live somewhere on the ECML and sacrifice several thousand pounds for commuter rail services, or try and stay inside London (and share a cupboard with roommates).

 

[radamfi]

And... where would they live?

They would either not apply for a job in London in the first place, or move to London and share a house with several others and pay about £100-£150 a week in rent.

Longer distance rail commuters are typically high earning.

 

[HaggisBotherer]

I have to disagree with the OP's assertion.

The UK railway network will never be 'decent' until the railway from Little Snoozlebury to Greater Fartington is reopened. It is located between two significantly-sized centres of habitation (Little Snoozlebury has a population of 67 - 48% of which have indicated that they would regularly use the train, while Greater Fartington has recently officially had Hamlet status conferred on it) and has limitless potential.

It would run as both a heritage line and as a community railway - or, as I like to say, CommYOUnity Railway.

For heritage operations several newbuild Bulleid Atlantics would be constructed, all to be named after famous call centre operators. To bridge the temporary gap between opening and investment in the latest, state-of-the-art Skyhooks traction package, shopper and commYOUter services would be run by refurbished former BR Starburster DMUs.

I have set up a Fudbook page and have already made practical progress by pulling up a dandelion from the formation close to the intermediate halt of Much Mirthing. Confidential negotiations are also already underway with the high profile owner of several diesel locomotives to agree the purchase price of a locoman's billy can.

I invite all interested parties to make donations to this exciting scheme via the well known crowdfunding sites PledgePipedream, GoScamMe and GlobalDreaming.

I look forward to the expected deluge of interest.

Fearon Lowthing
CEO, Managing Director, Chief Executive, Steering Committee, The Boss

 

[mrcheek]

One-fourth of a £20,000/yr salary. "Damn good value"?...
Another example - A TfL Zones 1-6 yearly Travelcard is £2568. The equivalent in Paris is less than £900 (and you can claim half from your employer).




SNCF season ticket fares are higher than DB's but £5,000 buys you a yearly Paris-Caen (248 km) season ticket with a few pounds to spare for drinks at the station.

when you take into account the fact that taxes are much higher in France and Germany, then I guess it works out about the same. which is kinda the point. British governments have decided that people should pay a greater share of heir own fares than in other countries.

 

[mrcheek]

I have to disagree with the OP's assertion.

The UK railway network will never be 'decent' until the railway from Little Snoozlebury to Greater Fartington is reopened. It is located between two significantly-sized centres of habitation (Little Snoozlebury has a population of 67 - 48% of which have indicated that they would regularly use the train, while Greater Fartington has recently officially had Hamlet status conferred on it) and has limitless potential.

It would run as both a heritage line and as a community railway - or, as I like to say, CommYOUnity Railway.

For heritage operations several newbuild Bulleid Atlantics would be constructed, all to be named after famous call centre operators. To bridge the temporary gap between opening and investment in the latest, state-of-the-art Skyhooks traction package, shopper and commYOUter services would be run by refurbished former BR Starburster DMUs.

I have set up a Fudbook page and have already made practical progress by pulling up a dandelion from the formation close to the intermediate halt of Much Mirthing. Confidential negotiations are also already underway with the high profile owner of several diesel locomotives to agree the purchase price of a locoman's billy can.

I invite all interested parties to make donations to this exciting scheme via the well known crowdfunding sites PledgePipedream, GoScamMe and GlobalDreaming.

I look forward to the expected deluge of interest.

Fearon Lowthing
CEO, Managing Director, Chief Executive, Steering Committee, The Boss

The man to blame here is Beeching, he should never have closed any of the railways at all!

and if he did, the trackbed should have been retained, just in case it might be needed again one day, rather than using the land for more productive purposes.

if only people had elected a Labour government, after all, they pledged to reverse Beeching's cuts!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

One-fourth of a £20,000/yr salary. "Damn good value"?...
Another example - A TfL Zones 1-6 yearly Travelcard is £2568. The equivalent in Paris is less than £900 (and you can claim half from your employer).

I think the word you mean is that £5000 on a £20 000 salary is not affordable That's not the same as whether it's good value. Whether it's good value generally depends on the whether there as a better priced reasonable alternative product, and on whether the price reasonably reflects the cost of providing the product. I doubt that comparisons with French fares are a good measure of good value because (I'm guessing) the French fares are very heavily subsidised.

And yes, to my mind, given the cost of running the railways, £5000 to travel a round trip of nearly 200km on 200-250 days seems pretty good value to me. It works out at little more than 10p per km. Obviously probably not affordable though on the kind of salary you're talking about.

 

[Greg Read]

Maybe we run too many trains ? the problem is, at such close headways, it only takes one train to fail, or even be 3 or 4 late, and it rebounds all down the line, and at the end of the line of delays all people see is a late train for no obvious reason.
Make them longer, and a bit further apart ? 2 half hour 8 cars instead of 4 x 4 cars ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The UK has bus passenger surveys and they constantly show good satisfaction. There may be some debate as to whether British trains compare well to continental equivalents, but surely there's less of an argument about buses?!

With buses the people who would be more interesting are those who aren't using them and why.

 

[bramling]

Maybe we run too many trains ? the problem is, at such close headways, it only takes one train to fail, or even be 3 or 4 late, and it rebounds all down the line, and at the end of the line of delays all people see is a late train for no obvious reason.
Make them longer, and a bit further apart ? 2 half hour 8 cars instead of 4 x 4 cars ?

Yes Britain does run too many short trains, and performance would be much better if it ran fewer long trains. However this isn't quite as straightforward to resolve as it first seems - many routes run the maximum length that platforms allow, whilst other routes do already run at maximum practicable length and frequency with no cheap fix to enhance.

Running two separate short services can also have a benefit on some routes if it allows one of the services to terminate short of the ultimate destination, run back empty as quickly as possible and work another service that otherwise there wouldn't be enough stock to run. However this is a bit of a sticking-plaster for not having enough stock in the first place.

 

[HaggisBotherer]

The man to blame here is Beeching, he should never have closed any of the railways at all!

and if he did, the trackbed should have been retained, just in case it might be needed again one day, rather than using the land for more productive purposes.

if only people had elected a Labour government, after all, they pledged to reverse Beeching's cuts!

In fairness I had to read your post twice before I was sure you were playing along. It was all the funnier for it

 

[BigCj34]

For the overcrowding issues with TPE and XC, is the infrastructure actually full or is there not enough rolling stock provision? From what I've seen XC isn't too expensive but you have to split tickets. Also will TPE's new rolling stock and timetables mitigate most of their issues?

As for Beeching, indeed a good proportion of routes would be used today if still open but the network hasn't really gotten any worse since then, and mostly improved with a smattering of reopenings.

With France the regional networks have been left to degrade over the years, large stretches of track with infrequent services and poor value for time and money journeys. The Bordeaux Lyon service for instance is no more with a section of the track closed, and other Intercity services having a 1tp2h frequency. But least Paris to Barcelona will be achievable within 5 hours this century!

 

[tbtc]

I cannot help at being outraged by the fares, especially for commuters. A Cambridge-London (50 km!) annual season ticket is almost £5,000

How much should it cost though? Given UK costs, salaries, safety etc?

And the fact that huge numbers of people commute fifty miles+ into London each morning, suggests there's still a market for rail at that price (£10 per single ticket?).

Bearing in mind that someone paying £5kpa for a season ticket over that distance is presumably saving lot of money compared to buying a house anywhere near central London.

And if you decide that it should only be three thousand pounds per annum then any fare cut is just going to go into the back pocket of the wealthy people who can already afford the five thousand pounds, effectively giving them thousands of pounds extra.

I have to disagree with the OP's assertion.

The UK railway network will never be 'decent' until the railway from Little Snoozlebury to Greater Fartington is reopened. It is located between two significantly-sized centres of habitation (Little Snoozlebury has a population of 67 - 48% of which have indicated that they would regularly use the train, while Greater Fartington has recently officially had Hamlet status conferred on it) and has limitless potential.

It would run as both a heritage line and as a community railway - or, as I like to say, CommYOUnity Railway.

For heritage operations several newbuild Bulleid Atlantics would be constructed, all to be named after famous call centre operators. To bridge the temporary gap between opening and investment in the latest, state-of-the-art Skyhooks traction package, shopper and commYOUter services would be run by refurbished former BR Starburster DMUs.

I have set up a Fudbook page and have already made practical progress by pulling up a dandelion from the formation close to the intermediate halt of Much Mirthing. Confidential negotiations are also already underway with the high profile owner of several diesel locomotives to agree the purchase price of a locoman's billy can.

I invite all interested parties to make donations to this exciting scheme via the well known crowdfunding sites PledgePipedream, GoScamMe and GlobalDreaming.

I look forward to the expected deluge of interest.

Fearon Lowthing
CEO, Managing Director, Chief Executive, Steering Committee, The Boss

That's certainly not the worst idea that I've seen on here - I'd put the Little Snoozlebury to Greater Fartington much higher on the list of likely schemes to get built than some of the rural schemes that are regularly suggested on the Forum!

And yes, to my mind, given the cost of running the railways, £5000 to travel a round trip of nearly 200km on 200-250 days seems pretty good value to me. It works out at little more than 10p per km. Obviously probably not affordable though on the kind of salary you're talking about.

Agreed - it's great value (considering the distance and frequency).

People are so quick to complain about the cost of season tickets but what would be a fairer price? (given that the demand is significantly higher in the rush hour, so any ticket needs to accommodate the fact that some rolling stock will be idle during the middle of the day, some platform lengths are only required at rush hour, there's a lot of additional capacity that is only used a couple of times a day, capacity that needs to be paid for by someone)

I can agree with people wanting significant extra subsidies for the rail industry, but if they are only going to use that money to save rich commuters lots of money each year then it doesn't seem like the best use of that cash.

Maybe we run too many trains ? the problem is, at such close headways, it only takes one train to fail, or even be 3 or 4 late, and it rebounds all down the line, and at the end of the line of delays all people see is a late train for no obvious reason.
Make them longer, and a bit further apart ? 2 half hour 8 cars instead of 4 x 4 cars ?

Agreed - we do run too many trains - but part of the problem is the obsession with direct services - so we end up with situations like four trains per hour from York to Manchester Victoria because it's apparently important for both Newcastle and Middlesbrough to have an hourly service to Manchester Airport and it's important for Liverpool to have lots of long distance services - same goes with six trains per hour from York to Newcastle (because we need to maintain hourly links from the Thames Valley to Newcastle/ from Exeter to Edinburgh etc?).

See also the mess of services through/around Manchester, because we've rejected the idea of giving each route a simple regular dependable service... instead we try to maintain though services that conflict with each other and become easily disrupted in the event of anything going wrong.

Imagine how unreliable Manchester Metrolink would be if someone decided it was essential for Bury to have regular hourly services to Piccadilly, Altrincham, Media City and the Airport (instead of one or two frequent cross-city destinations)? That's the mess that the UK (heavy) railway is in.

So we go on ordering two coach trains (e.g. 195s) and we go on pumping more hourly services down corridors (e.g. the Calder Valley apparently needs through trains to Manchester Airport, Liverpool, Southport and Chester!), rather than keeping things simple - having longer trains running less often.

But I'm in a minority here - most people want to preserve long distance links for the sake of the minority - the "tail" is more important than the "dog".

People don't like the idea of simpler shorter services that are more tailored to local demand.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Maybe we run too many trains ? the problem is, at such close headways, it only takes one train to fail, or even be 3 or 4 late, and it rebounds all down the line, and at the end of the line of delays all people see is a late train for no obvious reason.
Make them longer, and a bit further apart ? 2 half hour 8 cars instead of 4 x 4 cars ?

The other side to that is that a 4-car train every 15 minutes is a lot more attractive to most people than an 8-car train every half an hour, so going to fewer, longer, trains, would undoubtedly cause the loss of some passengers. And I'm dubious how much loss of reliability is actually caused by the high frequencies causing knock on effects. Sure, there's probably a fair amount of trains being delayed 5 minutes or so because of waiting for other trains/lack of capacity, but 5-10 minutes isn't really going to put many people off travelling. I'm fairly sure the really serious problems (when you get lots of cancelled trains, or trains being an hour late, etc.) almost invariably would have other causes (industrial action, problems on the line, those badly planned timetable changes, etc.) and so wouldn't be helped much by running fewer trains.

 

[Segedunum]

I find the UK's rail system to be distinctly middle of the road.

I prefer the integration you find with fares on the continent, and the reliability of some systems like the Dutch and Swiss. Even the Czechs really where everything still seems to come together despite short notice engineering, delays etc.

Compared with the Italians (some absolutely trashed suburban systems with appalling reliability), French (dire frequencies away from the big cities) and Spanish (poor frequencies outside of main cities, reservation compulsory on literally everything), however, I'd take our system any day of the week.

No, our fares aren't ideal and trying to get a major project like Preston-Manchester wiring and Crossrail delivered seems to be like nailing jelly to a wall, but we could have it FAR worse.

 

[sheff1]

I recall a passenger on what is now TfW having a rant about the increases to her fares, and even when I explained that it partly due to the biggest upgrade to our Railway System to the Victorian age she didn't want to know and just kept up the 'it's wrong, it's wrong' line.

Well the oft repeated mantra about the "biggest upgrade/investment ever" begins to wear a bit thin when passengers are still crammed into the same overcrowded Pacers/Voyagers and the like that they had to suffer 10 or more years ago, yet the cost for that same experience has gone up by an amount well above inflation.

In my view, much of the 'investment' has been spent on the wrong things. I wager most people would be far happier if the journey hadn't been speeded up by 5 minutes but, instead, the train length had been doubled so that they did not have to stand for the duration of the journey.

In most, but not all, parts of the UK the timetable frequency compares well with similar countries, but operating the services with 2/3/4 car trains when trains twice the length are the norm on equivalent lines abroad makes the actual journey less pleasant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For the overcrowding issues with TPE and XC, is the infrastructure actually full or is there not enough rolling stock provision? From what I've seen XC isn't too expensive but you have to split tickets. Also will TPE's new rolling stock and timetables mitigate most of their issues?

With XC it is purely rolling stock. They could operate near enough exactly their existing timetable with 8-car Voyagers throughout (and 3-car Turbostars replacing the 2s on that bit) and there would not be train length issues.

With TPE extension up to 5-car is also possible on almost all routes as that is exactly what's going to happen - it's just about 15 years overdue.

 

[Modron]

Well the oft repeated mantra about the "biggest upgrade/investment ever" begins to wear a bit thin when passengers are still crammed into the same overcrowded Pacers/Voyagers and the like that they had to suffer 10 or more years ago, yet the cost for that same experience has gone up by an amount well above inflation.

In my view, much of the 'investment' has been spent on the wrong things. I wager most people would be far happier if the journey hadn't been speeded up by 5 minutes but, instead, the train length had been doubled so that they did not have to stand for the duration of the journey.

In most, but not all, parts of the UK the timetable frequency compares well with similar countries, but operating the services with 2/3/4 car trains when trains twice the length are the norm on equivalent lines abroad makes the actual journey less pleasant.

I agree, and hopefully soon we will start to see the end of the Pacers. Is there a plan to upgrade the Voyagers or have next generation models for them?

 

[yorksrob]

The man to blame here is Beeching, he should never have closed any of the railways at all!

and if he did, the trackbed should have been retained, just in case it might be needed again one day, rather than using the land for more productive purposes.

if only people had elected a Labour government, after all, they pledged to reverse Beeching's cuts!

The closure programme, taken as a whole, was a disaster, perpetuated out of ideological zealotry, with little genuine assessment of its effectiveness in reducing costs.

 

[yorksrob]

How much should it cost though? Given UK costs, salaries, safety etc?

And the fact that huge numbers of people commute fifty miles+ into London each morning, suggests there's still a market for rail at that price (£10 per single ticket?).

Bearing in mind that someone paying £5kpa for a season ticket over that distance is presumably saving lot of money compared to buying a house anywhere near central London.

And if you decide that it should only be three thousand pounds per annum then any fare cut is just going to go into the back pocket of the wealthy people who can already afford the five thousand pounds, effectively giving them thousands of pounds extra.





That's certainly not the worst idea that I've seen on here - I'd put the Little Snoozlebury to Greater Fartington much higher on the list of likely schemes to get built than some of the rural schemes that are regularly suggested on the Forum!



Agreed - it's great value (considering the distance and frequency).

People are so quick to complain about the cost of season tickets but what would be a fairer price? (given that the demand is significantly higher in the rush hour, so any ticket needs to accommodate the fact that some rolling stock will be idle during the middle of the day, some platform lengths are only required at rush hour, there's a lot of additional capacity that is only used a couple of times a day, capacity that needs to be paid for by someone)

I can agree with people wanting significant extra subsidies for the rail industry, but if they are only going to use that money to save rich commuters lots of money each year then it doesn't seem like the best use of that cash.



Agreed - we do run too many trains - but part of the problem is the obsession with direct services - so we end up with situations like four trains per hour from York to Manchester Victoria because it's apparently important for both Newcastle and Middlesbrough to have an hourly service to Manchester Airport and it's important for Liverpool to have lots of long distance services - same goes with six trains per hour from York to Newcastle (because we need to maintain hourly links from the Thames Valley to Newcastle/ from Exeter to Edinburgh etc?).

See also the mess of services through/around Manchester, because we've rejected the idea of giving each route a simple regular dependable service... instead we try to maintain though services that conflict with each other and become easily disrupted in the event of anything going wrong.

Imagine how unreliable Manchester Metrolink would be if someone decided it was essential for Bury to have regular hourly services to Piccadilly, Altrincham, Media City and the Airport (instead of one or two frequent cross-city destinations)? That's the mess that the UK (heavy) railway is in.

So we go on ordering two coach trains (e.g. 195s) and we go on pumping more hourly services down corridors (e.g. the Calder Valley apparently needs through trains to Manchester Airport, Liverpool, Southport and Chester!), rather than keeping things simple - having longer trains running less often.

But I'm in a minority here - most people want to preserve long distance links for the sake of the minority - the "tail" is more important than the "dog".

People don't like the idea of simpler shorter services that are more tailored to local demand.

In truth, Atherton passengers have a very decent and logical service to Victoria that serves us well. We have excellent connections at either end.

 

[HaggisBotherer]

The closure programme, taken as a whole, was a disaster, perpetuated out of ideological zealotry, with little genuine assessment of its effectiveness in reducing costs.

Proof?

 

[Modron]

How much should it cost though? Given UK costs, salaries, safety etc?

And the fact that huge numbers of people commute fifty miles+ into London each morning, suggests there's still a market for rail at that price (£10 per single ticket?).

Bearing in mind that someone paying £5kpa for a season ticket over that distance is presumably saving lot of money compared to buying a house anywhere near central London.

And if you decide that it should only be three thousand pounds per annum then any fare cut is just going to go into the back pocket of the wealthy people who can already afford the five thousand pounds, effectively giving them thousands of pounds extra.





That's certainly not the worst idea that I've seen on here - I'd put the Little Snoozlebury to Greater Fartington much higher on the list of likely schemes to get built than some of the rural schemes that are regularly suggested on the Forum!



Agreed - it's great value (considering the distance and frequency).

People are so quick to complain about the cost of season tickets but what would be a fairer price? (given that the demand is significantly higher in the rush hour, so any ticket needs to accommodate the fact that some rolling stock will be idle during the middle of the day, some platform lengths are only required at rush hour, there's a lot of additional capacity that is only used a couple of times a day, capacity that needs to be paid for by someone)

I can agree with people wanting significant extra subsidies for the rail industry, but if they are only going to use that money to save rich commuters lots of money each year then it doesn't seem like the best use of that cash.



Agreed - we do run too many trains - but part of the problem is the obsession with direct services - so we end up with situations like four trains per hour from York to Manchester Victoria because it's apparently important for both Newcastle and Middlesbrough to have an hourly service to Manchester Airport and it's important for Liverpool to have lots of long distance services - same goes with six trains per hour from York to Newcastle (because we need to maintain hourly links from the Thames Valley to Newcastle/ from Exeter to Edinburgh etc?).

See also the mess of services through/around Manchester, because we've rejected the idea of giving each route a simple regular dependable service... instead we try to maintain though services that conflict with each other and become easily disrupted in the event of anything going wrong.

Imagine how unreliable Manchester Metrolink would be if someone decided it was essential for Bury to have regular hourly services to Piccadilly, Altrincham, Media City and the Airport (instead of one or two frequent cross-city destinations)? That's the mess that the UK (heavy) railway is in.

So we go on ordering two coach trains (e.g. 195s) and we go on pumping more hourly services down corridors (e.g. the Calder Valley apparently needs through trains to Manchester Airport, Liverpool, Southport and Chester!), rather than keeping things simple - having longer trains running less often.

But I'm in a minority here - most people want to preserve long distance links for the sake of the minority - the "tail" is more important than the "dog".

People don't like the idea of simpler shorter services that are more tailored to local demand.

I remember reading somewhere, once quite long ago, that somebody proposed doing 'Orbital Railways' around major cities like Manchester, London and Birmingham (like an M25, but for trains). I think I read it in RAIL back in the early 2000s but am not 100% sure.

Although it would cost a lot of money to do, would the idea of these 'Orbital Railways' as a bypass to these cities be a good or bad idea, so that trains don't get held up in city centres?