Controversial but here goes

[delt1c]

Controversial but here goes

Reading through postings it seems like there is a general dislike of the derivates of the PEP EMUS, pacers and to a certain extent the 150 family
Interestingly these seem to be some of the largest families of stock and hardest working stock on the network.
Take the 150’s of which the family includes 317, 318,455 and 456. the total number of coaches is well over 1000, they serve the network on a daily basis from the Southwest to the North East and here in the London area are the back bone of the former WAGN routes and SWT , the numbers of passengers moved daily by these units must be mind blowing,
The former PEP derivatives being 313, 314, 315, 507 and 508 provide sterling service and again move colossal numbers of passengers daily , despite their age they still put in great work. Over 800 coaches being built.
As for pacers , 22 – 23 years old, provided savings to save many services which otherwise could have been lost, still going strong Just under 300 vehicles still in service.

1st generation units which many remains over with Rose tinted glasses lasted on average 15 – 25 years and take it from me as a regular user of 1st gen units the ride quality, interior ambience and seating of the majority (even refurbished) was no where that of even the average Pacer today,
These units may not have the glamour of Pendos or HSTs, but they were trend setters in their days. The 317 was the 1st to be built for OPO work and was probably over engineered at the time, hence why the 321 family was designed to save on production costs.
Even today the 317’s are used on services over 100 mile long (Liverpool St to Kings Lyn).
OK I am biased I use 317’2 and 315’s on a daily basis and I for 1 have no wish to see them replaced as they do exactly what it says on the tin.
Cant understand why there is so much negative comments regarding Strathclyde 314’s I have used them and cant see what the problem is. Our WAGN 315’s ran un refurbished from introduction until just recently but still gave excellent service 314’s are same, they move tremendous loads of passengers daily which is what they were designed for. Remember all who knock them once they are gone then they are gone, that’s when Rose tinted specs come out.
So whilst these units may not initially be you favourites don’t write them of, give them the respect they deserve.
What could be better than a Pacer on the St Ives branch, large panoramic windows through which you get an excellent view of the sea.

 

[bluenoxid]

It's not controversial, its the fact of life. Those fleets work day in, day out providing sterling service to passengers that appreciate them as part of a service.

 

[90019]

Cant understand why there is so much negative comments regarding Strathclyde 314’s I have used them and cant see what the problem is. Our WAGN 315’s ran un refurbished from introduction until just recently but still gave excellent service 314’s are same, they move tremendous loads of passengers daily which is what they were designed for.

I think it's because they're currently the oldest stock in the FSR fleet.

However, in general, I do agree with your post; the units are out there doing their job as they're supposed to, and generally doing it better than what came before them. Some people may not like them, but that's their own problem - a TOC isn't going to replace stock because enthusiasts don't like them, especially with the shortage of stock just now.

The railways exist as a public service, not for enthusiasts, that is merely a bonus; put up with what you've got, you'll miss it when it's gone.

 

[Techniquest]

I concur with the 314s, I've been on a number of them over a variety of distances and stopping patterns. I don't mind them, they're alright machines and do what they're asked to do.

 

[D841]

Controversial but here goes


As for pacers , 22 – 23 years old, provided savings to save many services which otherwise could have been lost, still going strong Just under 300 vehicles still in service.

If there is a problem with the Pacers, it's that they are by and large not being used for the purposes BR intended. I am reminded forcibly of this every time I have to stand on a 142 or a 2-car 144 on a peak Leeds suburban service (or am left on the platform because I can't physically get on it), because that's all Northern has available to operate the service at that particular moment. They occasionally put on a single 153 for our pleasure, too, again a unit well out of its intended operating sphere.

The 3-car 144s are a bit better; at least I'm assured of somewhere to stand, rather than being left behind on the platform!

 

[delt1c]

If there is a problem with the Pacers, it's that they are by and large not being used for the purposes BR intended. I am reminded forcibly of this every time I have to stand on a 142 or a 2-car 144 on a peak Leeds suburban service (or am left on the platform because I can't physically get on it), because that's all Northern has available to operate the service at that particular moment. They occasionally put on a single 153 for our pleasure, too, again a unit well out of its intended operating sphere.

The 3-car 144s are a bit better; at least I'm assured of somewhere to stand, rather than being left behind on the platform!

This isnt a new problem. 2 car 105's (made into 8 car rakes) were used for years on services from Kings cross, also 117 and 118's used for long journeys. If memory services me correctly there was a diagram in the 1970's which used 116's on a run of of over 100miles. problem isnt the stock its the operators and stock providers not learning from the past.

 

[me123]

I concur with the 314s, I've been on a number of them over a variety of distances and stopping patterns. I don't mind them, they're alright machines and do what they're asked to do.

I have to agree that they're decent units; not a fan but they do the job. I bit dingy inside and should have had a refurb a few years back, but they do the job and for The Cathcart Circle they're perfect! I'm sure the affluent areas on the South Side will appreciate the 320s, though. (I hate the 320s, but I think they'll be well suited to the Cathcart duties).

As for 156s, Scotrail literally could not survive without them. They serve a variety of roles from short commuter services (Whifflet, Paisley Canal, Anniesland et al) to the long distance runs (Carlisle, Stranraer, Oban, Mallaig) and are extremely versatile units indeed, as can be demonstrated by their use for other companies. All 114 units are still in service and they're almost 20 years old; that's a good stat IMO.

And 318s are great in Glasgow as well for the commuters; the 3+2 arrangement is very comfortable (for once!).

 

[Pumbaa]

problem isnt the stock its the operators and stock providers not learning from the past.

What else can they do? Northern have only Pacers, a limited number of Mk3 derived DMUs, the 323s for Manchesters and the 158s for use on the regional runs. Yes obviously replace the stock, but that's short term. Northern is quite literally running at 100% use of all units, as evidenced by the need to hire in 180s to make up the last few diagrams.

Capacity is far from ideal, we all realise that. But, in my humble opinion, Northern are doing a damn fine job with matching supply to demand. Leeds seemed to have some stock taken away during the peaks, I presume to match demand elsewhere. I know the situations around Liverpool and Manchester have improved dramatically since taking over from FNW. Northern, is in my opinion, one of the finest operators at the moment.

 

[tbtc]

It frustrates me when some "enthusiasts" wax on about how wonderful some "odd balls" (like the class 89) are, and seem to get fed up with any large class.

My problems with the Pacers are mainly that (whilst they did the job they were meant to do in the 1980s and 1990s) they weren't built to still be used in such numbers in 2009. However, the refurbished WYPTE ones show that they *can* look okay if you spend a few quid on them.

I agree with the "rose tinted" comment too - it's a bit like the Routemaster bus - people have fond childhood memories of things, but the reality wasn't quite so good...

 

[507 001]

I have to say that the PEP stock is pretty brilliant considering the oldest of it is 30 odd years old.

the sprinter family also is still pretty good for its age, the northern ones are a bit knackered, but other than that they are good.

Pacers though are in dire need of replacement, they are unreliable, uncomfortable, too small and have incredibly bad crash worthiness.
in the long run they were designed and built too cheaply because of a certain lady prime minister who was trying to savean ailing company.

 

[O L Leigh]

Thanks Delt1c. You get a huge thumbs-up from me.

I've been singing the praises of the Cl315 and Cl317 units ever since I joined the railway, and I knew just how tatty the former got before they went away for refurb. They are stalwart units and are generally a pleasure to work. Their failure rate is generally low and it is rare that a member of either class becomes a total failure and requires assistance. When you consider that these units were rolling out of York from the late 1970's right through to the mid 1980's, how hard they've been worked since and how many miles they've covered in that time it's nothing short of a ruddy miracle that they can still be depended upon.

What is often overlooked is that the West Anglia side of NXEA, equipped with nothing but Cl315's and Cl317's all of which are between 25 and 30 years old, are the only sector of the company to have hit their PPM performance targets in the last performance period. In the period before, West Anglia's performance was third nationally behind Chiltern and c2c, both of which run on largely self-contained networks and with much more modern rolling stock. When you consider that we have no access to 4-track running and have to intermingle fast and slow services, it's a record I think we can be proud of.

As to the units themselves, I really enjoy working them. Sure they have a few little quirks and issues that Ilford could iron out if they had more time, money and inclination, but they are generally solid performers. I dread the day when the last of them is carted off to be replaced by some super-duper computer controlled unit. These might be popular with the passengers, but the software just adds an extra layer of complexity and greater scope for things to go wrong. It seems that there is a persistent bug in the Cl360's that even now informs the driver that the heating and A/C has failed even when it patently hasn't.

O L Leigh

 

[Bighat]

How refreshing to read a complete thread, so far anyway, with REASONED comments and opinions, devoid of some of the moronic comments which tend to pepper otherwise sensible discussions, or worse, are started for the express purpose of making said moronic comments.

Brilliant! Let's have more!

 

[D841]

This isnt a new problem. 2 car 105's (made into 8 car rakes) were used for years on services from Kings cross, also 117 and 118's used for long journeys. If memory services me correctly there was a diagram in the 1970's which used 116's on a run of of over 100miles. problem isnt the stock its the operators and stock providers not learning from the past.

The problem is the lack of investment in the system. I live in the West Yorkshire conurbation. I agree with the poster below that Northern do a very good job (with the resources they have), but they shouldn't be in a position where they have to use 1 or 2-car units on peak suburban services. That they are has more to do with DaFT than the operators or Roscos.

The network here is crying out for more electrification, and longer trains. In any other, sensible, country, this would have been done by now. Here, you don't even get much-needed new stations built unless WY Metro can find someone else to pay for them!

 

[Phoenix]

I will defiantly agree with you here Delt1c.

I feel exactly the same way with regards to the London Midland 150 fleet as a number of people call them life expired and limited in uses.
But honestly from my own observations the only detail which is life expired is the interiors which in my opinion should be changed frequently anyway.

Honestly people write off all the classes you have said above but it is obvious these unit's provide a backbone for any operator who uses them for instance if the LM 150 Fleet was gone tomorrow the Stratford Upon Avon - Kiddiminster services would simply not run and this example can be Mirrored with any of the supposed Life Expired unit's.

Finally we moan as a country that we need more capacity and it would be stupid to dispense of any DMU's Or EMU's at this moment in time. They may lack in speed and comfort but people forget that there on a train getting to their destination.

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

The railways exist as a public service, not for enthusiasts, thst is merely a bonus; put up with what you've got, you'll miss it when it's gone.

After reading through the whole of this thread this one statement underlined the whole thing for me, and I agree 100%.

 

[Tom C]

Around here the 319's are still going strong, bit tatty in places and they do go wrong every now and again but they are still going often bursting at the seams with commuters.

The 455's just seem to be indestructable at the moment. The failure rate has gone down (even though they never replaced the notorious door gear) and its a rare day to see a failure and infact lately its the 377's which still do an alarming amount of suburban work which have thrown a tantrum.

The BR builds will be around for many years to come and like many others I will be very sad when the last one gets hauled away for a date with the gas axe.

 

[delt1c]

Thanks Delt1c. You get a huge thumbs-up from me.

I've been singing the praises of the Cl315 and Cl317 units ever since I joined the railway, and I knew just how tatty the former got before they went away for refurb. They are stalwart units and are generally a pleasure to work. Their failure rate is generally low and it is rare that a member of either class becomes a total failure and requires assistance. When you consider that these units were rolling out of York from the late 1970's right through to the mid 1980's, how hard they've been worked since and how many miles they've covered in that time it's nothing short of a ruddy miracle that they can still be depended upon.

What is often overlooked is that the West Anglia side of NXEA, equipped with nothing but Cl315's and Cl317's all of which are between 25 and 30 years old, are the only sector of the company to have hit their PPM performance targets in the last performance period. In the period before, West Anglia's performance was third nationally behind Chiltern and c2c, both of which run on largely self-contained networks and with much more modern rolling stock. When you consider that we have no access to 4-track running and have to intermingle fast and slow services, it's a record I think we can be proud of.

As to the units themselves, I really enjoy working them. Sure they have a few little quirks and issues that Ilford could iron out if they had more time, money and inclination, but they are generally solid performers. I dread the day when the last of them is carted off to be replaced by some super-duper computer controlled unit. These might be popular with the passengers, but the software just adds an extra layer of complexity and greater scope for things to go wrong. It seems that there is a persistent bug in the Cl360's that even now informs the driver that the heating and A/C has failed even when it patently hasn't.

O L Leigh

I often feel that we are the forgotten area in the commuter belt, our stock does nothing short of a miracle day in and day, moving volumes of commuters that have to be seen to believed and as you say on a 2 track line , track bed is still extant from days of 4 track but I doubt we will ever see the extra tracks back. For anyone wishing to see for themselves how well timetabled the line go to broxbourne in the morning peak it is amazing how close the expresses , semi and hertfords are.
Spending most of my time travelling around London you can appreciate how well thought out the 315 and 317's were when designed as they load and unload huge volumes in a very short time, check out Tottenham Hale in the morning peaks and see how many alight in such a short time. The networker 365's and the 165's whilst nice take longer as with the longer bodyshell and still just 2 sets of doors passengers have longer to walk to the doors and when crush loaded it does take longer to fight your way through the crowds to get of.
The worst units I have used for commuting have to be the 158, when crowded you just cant get to the exits.
I agree it will be a sad day when our trusty 317's go. Initialy on the refurb I was sad to see the origonal seats retained, but when compared with newer stock they have to some of the comfiest suburban seats around, even at 2+3.
For enthusiasts planning a trip to London, give the hertford service a try and then on the return journey change at broxbourne and get a fast service back to Liverpool St, you will be surprised to find out what a 317 can do.
The ultimate is if you get a 317 out of Kings Cross on the peterborough service which can still hit the magic 100mph

 

[PhilipW]

Over 20 years ago I did a day trip from Barrow-in-Furness to Manchester Victoria on a 140 or 142 Pacer. That is 2.5 hours each way on a vehicle that is little more than a bus on wheels. I remember the journey well. Even to this day, I would rather find another means of transport than travel in such a way again. Surely train journies, especially long ones, are meant to be enjoyable.

I don't know how many 140s or 142s are still around. I think the day has long gone since they should have sent to the scrap yard.

A lot of the other classes mentioned in this thread (15x, 31x. 143, 144) may not be perfect but they are all far better than the basic 140/142 Pacers.

 

[me123]

delt1c is right; 317s and 318s are great units. I only have experience of 318s, but refurbished they are really nice units which have always had really comfortable seats despite the 3+2 combination. The only seats on the Glasgow area where I have witnessed all 3+2 being used by strangers! (Although I've never been on peak Cathcart trains to be fair).

When you look at the job the 313s do on the Cathcart Circle, you'd be surprised. There's only 14 trains, but they handle a huge amount of commuter traffic. When the 320s come along, that will be better for passengers with increased comfort and longer trains; the time has come for these units to be replaced but they've done a good job all things considered.

The Strathclyde Units running through Partick in the morning peak (318, 320, 334) all do a superb job with reasonable journey times, getting huge volumes of passengers on and off with some very tight working through the City.

I moan about 320s, but that could well be because I compare them to the superior 318s and 334s. In our area, that 3+2 seating simply does not work as we don't have huge overcrowding problems, and I think the people of Helensburgh and Balloch deserve better when the nicer trains all stop short at Dalmuir, but I understand the problems with clearance in the Argyle Line tunnels and cannot really complain when you see the good job they do clearing up East End commuters. They will be put to better use in Cathcart, but they haven't done too badly out here either.

 

[clagmonster]

The problem with 142s is that they are regularly used on duties for which they are unsuitable. For example, it is a regular occurance for Northern to send pacers out on Leeds-Morecambe services, while sprinters, even 158s, are on West Yorkshire locals, suchs as Leeds-Knottingley. I would not mind either substitution so much if it was a choice of that or concel the service, but otherwise it just seems mad. I am sure that there are other cases like this.
As for the 150s on the Snow Hill lines, I agree that they do a job. Hopefully, they will do an equally good job and bring much needed extra capacity when they are cascaded away when Tyseley get their new plastic units. The logical cascade would be 150/2s to the Western region, 150/1s to Newton Heath for their 150/2s to Neville Hill, thus providing 3 more common type fleets.

 

[507 001]

there are no class 140's left
and 143's and 144's are pretty much the same as the 142's.

 

[bluenoxid]

Over 20 years ago I did a day trip from Barrow-in-Furness to Manchester Victoria on a 140 or 142 Pacer. That is 2.5 hours each way on a vehicle that is little more than a bus on wheels. I remember the journey well. Even to this day, I would rather find another means of transport than travel in such a way again. Surely train journies, especially long ones, are meant to be enjoyable.

I don't know how many 140s or 142s are still around. I think the day has long gone since they should have sent to the scrap yard.

A lot of the other classes mentioned in this thread (15x, 31x. 143, 144) may not be perfect but they are all far better than the basic 140/142 Pacers.

142's are virtually the same as 143's and 144's. It's the interior that might swing it, but they still have the same ride and traction characteristics.

In total there are 96 142's, 25 143's and 23 144's. The 141's were withdrawn quite a while back, with a number in Iran and on preserved railways in the UK.

 

[Techniquest]

For enthusiasts planning a trip to London, give the hertford service a try and then on the return journey change at broxbourne and get a fast service back to Liverpool St, you will be surprised to find out what a 317 can do.
The ultimate is if you get a 317 out of Kings Cross on the peterborough service which can still hit the magic 100mph

Already more than aware of the amazing service the 317s provide after a trip to that part of London in April 2008. Very good accleration and a good top speed on them when they get the chance to thunder along.

Yet to have a 317 beyond Finsbury Park, but they're nice units.

As for O L Leigh's comments about the 315s, I still also recall the pre-refresh 315s and they were absolutely awful. Granted, I'm not a fan of the colours used inside but they're in a much nicer condition inside.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

As far as I am concerned, there is absolutely nothing wrong with these units. Built for high capacity loadings on inner urban routes, they do an excellent job.

The 150 is now beginning to show its age and this may be where the problem lies. A large number of Northern units need a good deal of refurbishment and, while this is slowly happening, the end product has not been as impressive as other classes in the fleet. They are also mainly still used in 2-car formations (except Leeds - Harrogate/York) and this simply does not provide the capacity now needed in and around Leeds/Manchester. Hopefully some cascaded units will find their way North and complement existing stock. If extra carriages are found then there is no reason why this fabulous unit cannot continue life for many years to come.

 

[Failed Unit]

The problem with 142s is that they are regularly used on duties for which they are unsuitable. For example, it is a regular occurance for Northern to send pacers out on Leeds-Morecambe services, while sprinters, even 158s, are on West Yorkshire locals, suchs as Leeds-Knottingley.

You have hit the nail on the head here, although I don't like the pacers myself if I was not on one for more than 30 minutes I would be able to put up with it for getting from A-B. Running the pacers on branch lines as they were intended doesn't cause much hardship, you get extremes like 158's on Glasgow - Anniesland a route perfect for a pacer and pacers on Lincoln - Sheffield a route that should really have a least a 150. I know you can't have a small fleet of pacers for Glasgow - Anniesland / Whifleet however as it just wouldn't cost effective to have such a small fleet on its own. The same issue occurs when 158 and 156's are used on local frequent stop services the dwell times increase.

You hear people calling the 150's "furnesses" in the NorthEast but I have never experienced this in other 150 run areas.

People often give units negative comments about units for reasons which are no fault of the unit. EMT using 158's on Norwich - Liverpool for example, would people really be complaining if they were all 4 car sets and everyone got a seat I doubt it. The condition of units is also amusing with people saying units should go because of seating layouts. "317/6's are wonderful units whereas 317/5's should all be scrapped", "ex FNW 150's are all wrecks whereas ex-Wessex's 150's are wonderful" In both these cases the seating layouts could be altered, I don't hear people complain about the SWT 455's for example, I haven't been on the Southern version but I am sure they wouldn't complain about them either! The 317/7 on Stansted express are also perfectly suited for the job and get no complaints, the 317/8's do but that isn't the units fault just the spec of the refresh!

 

[me123]

Running the pacers on branch lines as they were intended doesn't cause much hardship, you get extremes like 158's on Glasgow - Anniesland a route perfect for a pacer and pacers on Lincoln - Sheffield a route that should really have a least a 150. I know you can't have a small fleet of pacers for Glasgow - Anniesland / Whifleet however as it just wouldn't cost effective to have such a small fleet on its own. The same issue occurs when 158 and 156's are used on local frequent stop services the dwell times increase.

I would not agree with Pacers on the Whifflet services. I know the route well, and the speed the trains travel from Rutherglen-Central with all the points it has to cross over would not be a comfortable experience, however Anniesland, Paisley Canal and other such routes would be fine with Pacers IMO. 158s on Anniesland is really only because of diagramming IIRC; a 158 comes off an Aberdeen run and onto another Aberdeen run later on in the day, so this saves an ECS movement.

I, however, wouldn't move the pacers too far. Keep them with the current TOCs/in the current areas but utilise them better. The reason I'm saying this is because the driver training in Scotland or other areas without Pacers would not be beneficial as the trains should be on their way out in the foreseeable future.

Pacers on Carlisle-Newcastle is not a good scenario; they could be put to better use on branch line services that currently have 156s and 158s.

I'd like to see new trains directly replace the pacers in the next few years. 172s would probably be ideal.

 

[tbtc]

I would not agree with Pacers on the Whifflet services. I know the route well, and the speed the trains travel from Rutherglen-Central with all the points it has to cross over would not be a comfortable experience

The Whifflet line would be perfect for electrification, since both ends of it have the wires - I was surprised it wasn't wired.

As for the other routes, plus maybe even Bathgate/ Newcraighall/ Fife Circle, these would be run by Pacers if they were a couple of hundred miles further south.

 

[jon0844]

I hated the colour schemes on the One refreshed 317s, but think FCC has done a great job on the 317s on their side - both inside and out (with the bodywork treated and no doubt making the train able to go another 20+ years!). If NXEA were going to do the trains again (doubtful if they're getting new trains soon) then I'm sure they'd use a more tasteful colour scheme.

With CCTV and passenger information screens, they're more than capable of competing with the 365s. The seats are comfortable but it IS cramped with 3+2 seating. If only FCC had spent some more money and changed the seating, but they only have a handful and come 2015 they're all being replaced anyway.

As for the 313s, well they're amazing. Good solid engineering that has stood the test of time. With good maintenance, their performance is amazing. I'm now using them pretty much every day since moving from King's Cross to Old Street for work. I've also been on one that was allowed on the fast line, and it must have reached 100mph - not bad for a train that the book says does 75mph!

The only disappointment is the lack of passenger information screens. From a passenger point of view, the lack of information (and drivers rarely announce stations) makes travelling awkward (mostly when it's dark) on a busy train and cannot see what station you are at (too many stations have signs that aren't lit and even regular passengers, if you've had your head in a paper, would probably struggle to identify from whatever bit you can see from where you're stood). Nearly every day this year, I'm hearing people asking "What station is this?" to people, who then have to look and probably recognise the station based on the lighting, platform layout etc.

As for the 315s, well I guess they're the same as the 313s from a mechanical point of view (?) but from a passenger view, they looked a mess and had horrid low-back seating. The interior is, after all, what most people care about most (until it breaks down, when the stuff you don't see is more important!).

 

[Pumbaa]

I've also been on one that was allowed on the fast line, and it must have reached 100mph - not bad for a train that the book says does 75mph!

Would have only reached 75mph then - although 100 may be the line limit, the limit of the unit is 75, regardless.

 

[87015]

Would have only reached 75mph then - although 100 may be the line limit, the limit of the unit is 75, regardless.

Hmm... Depends if it was pre-OTMR days!