Control Period 6 - ideas?

[burty76]

Admittedly, my post wasn't referring specifically to CP6 aspirations. Only countering an argument against line reopenings and for electrification in North East England.

Ah ok. Personally my wish-list for the North-East would be :

Blyth/Ashington - Washington added to the Tyne and Wear Metro network

Tees-side metro introduced using 2-car Class 170's running every 20 mins between Darlington and Saltburn, and Hartlepool and Nunthorpe. Hourly extensions to Bishop Auckland, and two-hourly to Whitby.

Hourly express from Middlesborough to Newcastle via Ferryhill. Hourly semi-fast Middlesborough to Newcastle via Hartlepool. Both using Class 170's and extended to MetroCentre/Carlisle.

Half hourly electric services Newcastle - Morpeth with more trains extended north of Morpeth, ideally to Berwick.

 

[John55]

Any particular reason for that? It does seem quite an odd scenario, provided of course that the two can be left to run independently of one-another.

The problem is that the two systems are not independent of each other. Both use the running rails to complete the electrical circuit between the power source and the train. For an electric current to flow there has to be a separate connection for both the outward and return current even if the return path is via earth.

There are other issues to deal with as well but if the running rails are connected to both AC and DC return paths then problems can occur with currents flowing in circuits they should not be flowing in. In particular the AC system is rigorously earthed with low impedances to ground to ensure the safety of people working near the line. As a result DC current can flow through the AC return as this will often be a lower impedance path back to the DC sub-station (via earth) than the running rails. The consequences range from interference with adjacent telecoms, dangerous voltages in unexpected places (especially during fault conditions) and corrosion of adjacent metal structures. You don't want the local cast iron sewer to fail due to stray currents eroding the metal at a vital point especially if the sewer is above the railway!

This problem also exists in a different form for different DC systems like Network Rail 3rd rail systems and LUL's 4th rail system and in the past for the LMS's 3rd rail system and the Mersey Railway's 4th rail system.

 

[Kettledrum]

MidlandMainlie;1156249]I think some MML infill electrification is likely in CP6, Sheffield – Doncaster, Sheffield – Leeds and (Bristol-) Birmingham – Derby (as part of an electrified core XC network) are almost certain. Additionally I would like to see Derby-Crewe and the Erewash Valley electrified as well.

I agree - All of this is a logical extension of the MML electrification

Beyond the MML I think the Government will want to electrify rail routes to as many container ports as possible so Selby – Hull and Felixstowe – Ipswich – Ely/Cambridge* – Peterborough – Leicester – Birmingham to create an East/West electric freight route to complement the North/South electric spine.

Interesting idea, but I'm not convinced, this will be the strategy. I think there's a lot of routes around the electric spine which will get done first, e.g. chiltern route.

I also expect to see some detailed planning on the central section of East West Rail between Bedford and Cambridge to complete the missing link and allow freight to avoid going via London. On a side note does anybody have a clue how the electrification of EWR will affect the costs of The central sections, I think the central option was costed at around £250 million and the southern option at £300 million in 2009, but given the electrification announcement is this likely to go up by much?

Again, I'm not convinced. The Western part of East-West rail had significant extra benefits, such as serving the huge growth areas of Milton Keynes, and the strategic freight route from Southampton. The rest of E-W rail has to compete with lots of other projects to get the funding.

Other thoughts:

- Re-open Camp Hill route in Birmingham to passengers - I'm amazed this didn't get the nod this time along with the Sutton Park Line and additional stations on the Tamworth line into Birmingham. By building the Bordesly chords, you get three new commuter routes into the second most congested city.
- Electrify Bournmouth or Weymouth to Southampton - this is listed on the cabinet office's website, so must be close to happening, even if not in the DFT CP5 document.
- Re-open Matlock to Buxton - 20 miles - high profile route -former main line. It would be a huge surprise, but after Oxford to Bedford, who knows. It would be a big political signal that rail investment is the future. Just like the Oxford to Bedford part of E-W rail, it would create new journey opportunities, and could be electrified with the route currently closed.

 

[DXMachina]

TW Metro conversion to 25kv. (Plenty 1500v lines have been converted before) with a lot of retention of original equipment (in those areas not shared by heavy rail as well)

 

[Drsatan]

Ideally, I'd like to see some investment focused on the West Country. While electrification of Taunton to Exeter, or anywhere else in Devon or Cornwall is unlikely, I would like to see the following happen:

The Tavistock branch ought to be reopened as soon as possible, and Bere Alston to St Budeaux Victoria Road ought to be redoubled to allow for an hourly service, worked by a pair of 150s, from Tavistock to Plymouth. A shuttle worked by a 153 would operate from Bere Alston to Gunnislake.

Enough 158s should be cascaded into the West Country for 150s to be cascaded from services for which most people would deem a 150 unsuitable for, such as Penzance-Cardiff. Hopefully sufficient 158s should be cascaded from Scotrail once the Edinburgh-Glasgow electrification has been completed.

I'd support running an hourly local service from Penzance to Plymouth, allowing all XC services and HSTs to run semi-fast to Plymouth, calling only at St Erth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Bodmin Parkway & Liskeard.

Reopening St Columbs Road to Burngollow Junction ought to happen to allow Newquay services to run to St Austell, which has a much larger catchment area than Par. As far as reopenings go I'd like to see the reopening of the Teign Valley line proposed, with the alignment straightened for 125mph running where possible. All long-distance services would be diverted along this line, with the line via Dawlish reserved for local services and freight trains.

Station openings (or reopenings) I'd like to see are Plympton, South Hams and Brent (which could be served by an hourly all-stations service from Newton Abbot), Kingskerwell, Exminster, Sampford Courtnay, North Tawton,Cullompton, Monkerton, Newcourt, Marsh Barton & Edginswell, as proposed in this report about a proposed 'Devon Metro' published here by Devon County Council.

I would also like to see a regular service being operated on the Okehampton branch (this should be made a condition of the next franchise holder, subject to rolling stock availability), and at least the Exmouth Junction - Topsham on the Exmouth branch to be redoubled to allow for a more frequent service.

 

[WatcherZero]

T&W conversion, Is there any need for it?

 

[ainsworth74]

At the very top of my list of priorities...

If you offered me that little lot or electrification of existing lines/services I'd be hard pressed to say no! I suppose you and 142094 are both right in that simply continuing with diesel service and increasing both the capacity and frequency might be the best way forward. It just seems to me that there is potential for electrification in these parts (an electric link to Teesport for example) but I guess the problem is that the region is never likely to attract the spending needed to really do it justice.

 

[DavidBrown]

Ideally, I'd like to see some investment focused on the West Country. While electrification of Taunton to Exeter, or anywhere else in Devon or Cornwall is unlikely, I would like to see the following happen:

Don't think the wores would end at Taunton. Whilst some local and HST services terminate there, it's not enough to justify ending the wires there - would be much more beneficial to take them to Exeter or Paignton/Plymouth.

The Tavistock branch ought to be reopened as soon as possible, and Bere Alston to St Budeaux Victoria Road ought to be redoubled to allow for an hourly service, worked by a pair of 150s, from Tavistock to Plymouth. A shuttle worked by a 153 would operate from Bere Alston to Gunnislake.

Reopening the branch is already work in progress so doesn't need to appear in CP5 or 6 for it to happen. Personally, I'd have a passing loop, possibly at Bere Ferrers, to allow an hourly Plymouth - Tavistock service, then potentially have a Class 139 shutte to serve from Bere Alston to Calstock and Gunnislake. But this really would be down to the TOC, and out of the remit of CP6.

Enough 158s should be cascaded into the West Country for 150s to be cascaded from services for which most people would deem a 150 unsuitable for, such as Penzance-Cardiff. Hopefully sufficient 158s should be cascaded from Scotrail once the Edinburgh-Glasgow electrification has been completed.

Again, I don't believe that it's really within the remit of the CP's, but it would be a case of would FGW want to replace their mid-distance trains or the pacers first.

I'd support running an hourly local service from Penzance to Plymouth, allowing all XC services and HSTs to run semi-fast to Plymouth, calling only at St Erth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Bodmin Parkway & Liskeard.

Not really much benefit in that - removing stops from near the end of a route would actually cause hassle for more people than it would help, as many more people would then have to change a short distance into their journey, and for minimal time savings.

As far as reopenings go I'd like to see the reopening of the Teign Valley line proposed, with the alignment straightened for 125mph running where possible. All long-distance services would be diverted along this line, with the line via Dawlish reserved for local services and freight trains.

No way on earth could you have 125mph running on the Teign Valley route - far too twisty. You'd be much better in the long term building one of the old proposed diversions from Bishopsteignton to Exminster. But we're kinda getting back into fantasy land rather than thinking what there is an immediate business case for.

Station openings (or reopenings) I'd like to see are Plympton, South Hams and Brent (which could be served by an hourly all-stations service from Newton Abbot), Kingskerwell, Exminster, Sampford Courtnay, North Tawton,Cullompton, Monkerton, Newcourt, Marsh Barton & Edginswell, as proposed in this report about a proposed 'Devon Metro' published here by Devon County Council.

I would agree that there needs to be a much better local service between Plymouth and Newton Abbot and Exeter and Taunton, which would include reopening several stations. Sampford Courtenay is open but owned by the Dartmoor Railway.

I would also like to see a regular service being operated on the Okehampton branch (this should be made a condition of the next franchise holder, subject to rolling stock availability), and at least the Exmouth Junction - Topsham on the Exmouth branch to be redoubled to allow for a more frequent service.

Again, you'd do well to convice many that there is a stronger business case for this over most of the electrifcation schemes or reopenings.

 

[hwl]

CP6 thoughts:

Plenty more electrification, but mainly infill where the BCR has been swung by the CP5 work and other items that just missed the CP5 list like grade separation at Newark.

I suspect we will see more 3rd rail to OHLE conversion in the south east.

The big gap on this thread that hasn't been mention but was brought up in the CP5 HLOS was funding to plan links to HS2 for the work to be done in CP6. Linking to HS2 could improve the BCR for many schemes.
Given we only currently know the southern end of the route the big given is the link with EWR for construction and maintenance purposes. Further north on the as yet (un)announced route might this include Birmingham-Derby electrification with grade separation junction to meet HS2?

Going further north HS2 route into Leeds could help the case for enhancement / electrification of multiple existing routes between Leeds and Sheffield. Effectively linking more Cities and Town in the north-east without phase 2 or even 3 (Phase 3 - going Leeds, York , Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Newcastle) could help improve the BCR of the righthand part of the Y. The biggest obstacle appears to be 1500VDC electrification on the Metro, time for some dual voltage units on renewal, so everything becomes 25KV AC at some point?

In the Northwest Liverpool currently appears to benefit a lot less than Manchester after phase 2 is this a cue for a proposal to improve line speeds / paths into Liverpool?

 

[Holly]

Any particular reason for that? It does seem quite an odd scenario, provided of course that the two can be left to run independently of one-another.

It's to do with having a shared ground. Any DC that gets into a transformer or autotransformer plays hell with it by driving the transformer's magnetic circuit into non-linearity. It takes surprisingly little DC to bias a transformer core.
So changeover section needs to be short and well isolated.
There is also a signalling issue, it too needs extra (and expensive per mile) equipment.

 

[The Ham]

Station openings (or reopenings) I'd like to see are Plympton, South Hams and Brent (which could be served by an hourly all-stations service from Newton Abbot), Kingskerwell, Exminster, Sampford Courtnay, North Tawton,Cullompton, Monkerton, Newcourt, Marsh Barton & Edginswell, as proposed in this report about a proposed 'Devon Metro' published here by Devon County Council.

If the following planning application gets approved then Newcourt station is likely to be (at least in part) developer funded (outlined in their Travel Plan & Transport Assesment):
http://pub.exeter.gov.uk/scripts/ac...PNAME=Root.PgeResultDetail&TheSystemkey=62558

With the land already provided under a previous developer's planning application.

As such you may have an anouncement on it before one on CP6, as the BCR is already 1:8.5 and with further developer funding that is likely to sky rocket.

 

[142094]

TW Metro conversion to 25kv. (Plenty 1500v lines have been converted before) with a lot of retention of original equipment (in those areas not shared by heavy rail as well)

Very unlikely to happen. Nexus are spending money right now on improving the overheads, so unlikely to want to change that in a few years time.

 

[Kneedown]

My wishlist for CP6 would be, as previously mentioned, electrification of the Matlock branch. Unfortunately, on it's own i don't see how it can be justified. The answer would be to do a few other simple branches at the same time. Nott's to Lincoln has no low bridges to worry about. Derby to Stoke would also be a shortish infill. All these combined would mean less than 100miles of new electrification, but the release of at least 10, if not more, DMU's. The business case for doing the Robin Hood line, which is 4tph in the morning peak, would be strengthened too.
Other schemes should be the infill of the MML diversions, ie Erewash Valley, Beighton, Corby to Syston, as well as the extension to Donny and Moorthorpe.

 

[LE Greys]

I'm not exactly sure whether Scotland would be covered under this, but I'll put it up anyway just in case.

Future routes on their own merit

• Lines in Fife, provided something can be done about the Forth and Tay bridges
• Any extension of the Waverley, hopefully all the way to Carlisle one day
• The entire route to Alloa
• Any remaining bits of the Strathclyde network, including a possible branch to Glasgow Airport and the line out to Kilmarnock
• Stirling-Dundee
• Dundee-Aberdeen-Dyce (dual the Dyce-Aberdeen section for operational convenience)

Potential future routes if service frequency improves

• Perth-Inverness
• Dyce-Inverness
• Kilmarnock-Kingmoor (mostly for freight)

On the Western, I'd like to look at Bristol-Penzance and Newbury-Cogload Junction, including any branches that have a regular service off the main line (a potential use for d.c. electrification and dual-system trains outside the Southern).

 

[DXMachina]

Very unlikely to happen. Nexus are spending money right now on improving the overheads, so unlikely to want to change that in a few years time.

Parts of the GWML were resignalled recently with non-OHLE-compatible equipment. Stupid stuff happens. T&W Met repowering may enable another swathe of regional electrification and conversion of freight flows as well as passenger ones to electric, which is slowly becoming a national priority it seems

About the one thing we all agree on is that electrification is good and diesel trains aren't...

 

[142094]

Parts of the GWML were resignalled recently with non-OHLE-compatible equipment. Stupid stuff happens. T&W Met repowering may enable another swathe of regional electrification and conversion of freight flows as well as passenger ones to electric, which is slowly becoming a national priority it seems

About the one thing we all agree on is that electrification is good and diesel trains aren't...

It would still depend on where the electrification streches to. Services on the Durham Coast line are normally Middlesbrough - Hexham, so Newcastle - Hexham would also need to be electrified, or a timetable recast, for the full effects to be created. The other fact is that you'd have to re-wire the whole of the Metro system, which nothing else but a Metrocar can run on anyway, which seems like a waste of money.

 

[DXMachina]

A lot of LNER 1500vdc catenary served 25kv services around Manchester for decades. Since the metro was electrified around the same time the Woodhead route was de-electrified (IE, half a century later which had brought massive improvements in materials science) I'd expect the quality of the wiring to be equally high if not better.

And the principle that it may be worth replacing old-school DC electrification systems with modern 25kv has now been set - thanks to the current plans for the electric spine

T&W to 25kv may not happen soon, but I bet it'll happen.

 

[142094]

The only time I can see it happening is when there is a change of rolling stock, which is due to happen soon. Any plans to change the wires you have to come out now, as no doubt it would take years to plan.

 

[HSTEd]

Tri-voltage 1500V, 3kV and 25kV can now be done with single pantographs these days, as demonstrated by the AGV.

So why would they need to convert the metro system at great expense when they could spend the money on a power uprate and ensure that the trains used on such services are bi-voltage.

 

[DXMachina]

Because that makes the core network off-limits to 25kv stock and there's no way that new EMUs or freight locomotives will be equipped for dual-voltage overhead at a time when standardisation is finally understood to be good

 

[142094]

The fact of the matter is that you'd be changing the whole electrification system of the Metro to benefit the 14 km from Pelaw Junction to Sunderland. Doing that would severely disrupt the rest of the system, for no benefit at all to current users. There is also the fact that you cannot use other stock on the system due to clearance issues in the tunnel sections.

 

[jopsuk]

Surely an answer would be to make the shared section 25kV with dual-voltage Metro stock, leaving the rest of the system as 1500V DC?

 

[142094]

That would be the easiest thing to do, but who is going to pay for dual-voltage Metro stock? Nexus certainly wouldn't, so it would have to be Network Rail or the DfT.

 

[tbtc]

The fact of the matter is that you'd be changing the whole electrification system of the Metro to benefit the 14 km from Pelaw Junction to Sunderland. Doing that would severely disrupt the rest of the system, for no benefit at all to current users. There is also the fact that you cannot use other stock on the system due to clearance issues in the tunnel sections.

Other than lack of capacity at Newcastle Central (which I appreciate is an obstacle) is there any physical reason why the line from South Hylton to Newcastle can't be electrified to the same standard as the ECML?

(i.e. going back to the pre 2002 situation with the Metro no longer running to Wearside)

 

[LE Greys]

Alternatively, is there any other route the Metro could use, even if it means a single-track NR line alongside the current one and a new station at/under Sunderland?

 

[sprinterguy]

Alternatively, is there any other route the Metro could use, even if it means a single-track NR line alongside the current one and a new station at/under Sunderland?

It would be easy to find the space to segregate Metro and heavy rail services within the present Sunderland station: Simply reopen the disused western island platform (Which admittedly wouldn't be nearly as simple as it would have been before the Metro was extended to Sunderland, as the active island platform was built out so that the DOWN line is now right up against the edge of the disused island).

On the remainder of the route between Sunderland and Pelaw though, I can't see adding a third line as being feasible, and there would have to be sections of single line running for the TW Metro too, most notably at the Sunderland end, which would be difficult to accomodate with the high frequency of services. And diverting the Metro to operate by a different route (It could go Pelaw - Washington - South Hylton - Sunderland hypothetically) would rather defy the point of providing the intermediate stations between Sunderland and Newcastle with a high frequency service.

 

[joeykins82]

Given the CP5 "electric spine" for freight I expect CP6 to wire up at least one more major freight artery in addition to passenger routes. Looking at the map of where the freight movements are in the NR Freight RUS I reckon the big one they'll go for will be wiring up the Felixtowe to Nuneaton corridor; Felixtowe Port-GEML, Haughley Jct - Ely, Ely-Peterborough, Peterborough-Leicester via Oakham, Leicester-Nuneaton and on through to Birmingham. It'd probably make sense to wire Corby-Oakham as well giving EMT an electric diversionary route and possible service enhancements such as sending all Corby services through to Melton Mowbray or Leicester. This would also give XC a fully electric Birmingham-Stanstead route which might go some way to making the journey times less horrendous.

Freight strategic infills have got to include GOBLIN, then looking at the RUS map the route from Birmingham-Derby, the Erewash Valley and Sheffield through to Church Fenton. The bit which really caught my eye though was the volume of freight movements on the line from Doncaster to Immingham & Grimsby. To me that looks like it might be the next Oxford to Bedford "I wasn't expecting that" bit of wiring!

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...tilisation strategies/freight/freight rus.pdf (page 25)

 

[jopsuk]

If the Felixstowe-Nuneaton route is done, I'd hope to see at least some of the other East Anglia routes done- Bury St Edmunds-Cambridge would hopefully be an obvious add-on, and Ely-Norwich would help towards making Liverpool-Norwich an electric service- and with suitable upgrade to power supplies on the West Anglia, it could perhaps even provide a diversionary route for Norwich-London services (though pathing them through the Lee Valley would be rather tricky)

 

[joeykins82]

The West Anglia RUS calls for four-tracking of the Lea Valley lines so this might well happen in CP6. Agree that Cambridge-Bury St Edmunds would be an obvious "we're here so let's JFDI" extension. I think Ely-Norwich has too many track miles to make it in to CP6, especially if the XC route and Chiltern line gets done as many have predicted. I suppose we could see an cascade of bi-mode eVoyagers to EMT for Norwich-Liverpool if XC were to get electric only stock for the Manchester-Reading/Bournemouth route rather than lugging diesel generators around on a fully electrified line.

 

[LE Greys]

The West Anglia RUS calls for four-tracking of the Lea Valley lines so this might well happen in CP6. Agree that Cambridge-Bury St Edmunds would be an obvious "we're here so let's JFDI" extension. I think Ely-Norwich has too many track miles to make it in to CP6, especially if the XC route and Chiltern line gets done as many have predicted. I suppose we could see an cascade of bi-mode eVoyagers to EMT for Norwich-Liverpool if XC were to get electric only stock for the Manchester-Reading/Bournemouth route rather than lugging diesel generators around on a fully electrified line.

With some work on the track to increase HST/DMU speed limits to the current SP limit, that's quite possible. AIUI, electrification would require considerable track-level work anyway, so a complete relay and upgrade would not cost all that much more. Otherwise, it's a case of Turbostars or nothing for quite some time yet, unless they split the route somewhere.