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Control Period 5

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WatcherZero

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From what I hear Network Rails Control Period 5 request will be presented to Government this Thursday, its going to present three funding package options for him to choose from.

1. Large investment for the future, Network Rail finds savings beyond McNulty targets and Government reinvests the savings back into the network while fares continue to be above inflation.
2. Moderate investment, Network Rail finds savings beyond McNulty targets and Government claws it back but fares remain above inflation.
3. Low investment, Network Rail finds savings beyond McNulty targets, Government claws them back and at the same time reduces fares to equal or below inflation.

The Transport Secretarys response will be next Summer.

Thursday Update

Here we go, Network Rails CP5 submissions for funding.

England and Wales
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/imagelibrary/downloadMedia.ashx?MediaDetailsID=5067

Scotland
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/imagelibrary/downloadMedia.ashx?MediaDetailsID=5071


Reading through England for highlights....

Economic benefits of CP5 plan
* Cost to taxpayer reduced by 66% in 2019 compared to 2014, to £1bn per annum. Giving Government the choice to keep savings, reinvest or lower fares.
* 170,000 more seats in peak, 30% increase in freight paths
* Reduce risk at railway crossings by 50%
* 25% fewer CO2 emmissions
* BCR of 4.5-1

Network Rails largest single cost is the interest on the loans it took out against the RAB for investment, reversing long term underinvestment and the backlog of repairs it inherited. It will examine refinancing options to remove this liablity.

Costs per passenger km have fallen since 2005/6 and will continue to fall, rolling stock utilisation rate is 24% higher than at privitisation. Targets for saving are labour productivity, resource allocation, rolling stock procurement, ticketing and retail provision.

It contests McNultys assertation that rolling stock is underutilised and passenger loading is low which should lead to savings on rural routes saying its commisioned its own study into rolling stock utilisation which will consider the differing UK geographic structure (more commuter, shorter distance, higher frequency, more dense seating, shorter length, rural routes, etc...)

Rail is a popular and cheaper alternative to car and major cities are increasingly reliant on it, it expects usage to continue to rise and the major challenge being rolling stock demand.

Investment
£4.5bn is already committed to CP5 in projects like Crossrail and Electrification, its proposing £4.9bn of additional investment with a BCR of 4.5-1 which would require Government subsidy to maintain this infrastructure to increase by £260m by 2019. Some infrastracture would be self funding though would not repay its construction cost before the end of CP5. While the proposal is one package it contains within it options ranging from BCR 1.9 to 4.8 which the Government could choose not to support.

Investment Proposed
Just skimming this, but the proposed investments are:

Extra electification
* the Midland Main Line from Bedford to Corby, Nottingham, and Sheffield via Derby;
* Gospel Oak to Barking and the associated Thameside Branch and Ripple Lane sidings;
* the North Trans-Pennine route via Diggle (between Guide Bridge and Leeds, and between Leeds and Colton Junction connecting to the East Coast Main Line for York); and
* the Cardiff Valley lines.
* Perhaps implementing a plan converting South East 3rd rail network to Overhead 25kv AC.

Northern Hub, Station schemes in the South East, line speed improvements in the East Midlands, Yorkshire, Bristol and Oxford; more electric freight utilising electrification schemes, closure and upgrade of level crossings, passenger and station congestion improvements, Liverpool capacity increase, Midland Mainline platform lengthening, Leamington Spa-Coventry improvemens (low BCR of 1.5 so may not be approved), Birmingham New St-Tamworth resignalling and turnbacks to increase freight paths, Great Western to Heathrow connection. Great Western gauge enchancement to W12, WCML capacity improvement north of Preston, Derby Station layout reconfigurement (BCR only 1.0 at present but early stages).
 
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northwichcat

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They mention Cardiff Valley lines electrification and Manchester Triangle electrification as likely future schemes. What does the latter mean? Could it be Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds-Halifax-Manchester?

The plan for Pacer replacement seems Valley lines electrification replacing Pacers and North TPE electrification together with Manchester-Cardiff electrification releasing DMUs to replace Pacers.
 
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jopsuk

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Much as I can see arguments in favour of turning the southern 3rd rail network over to OHL, surely this should happen AFTER almost all of the rest network is wired up?

(as an aside, an ideal priority list for coverting the Southern? Say, Thameslink routes and HS1 feeders. Then the Croydon-Milton Keynes route. Overground, all routes. Fill in the rest of Southeastern and Southern networks (including the unelectrified stretches). Gatwick-Reading. Then the SWT routes- including at Salisbury. Have the borders at suitable change over points throughout).

Seriously, going OHL in the south whilst diesels still run busy routes alsewhere would be rather unpopular.
 

northwichcat

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Birmingham-Manchester XC services to go over to electric traction releasing Voyagers for other routes. In that case maybe they should do Birmingham-Manchester-Scotland as a through service and give places like Macclesfield direct services to places like Preston.
 

The Planner

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How can Birmingham to Manchester go over to electric when apart from early in the day the service runs from south of Brum ??
 

WatcherZero

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It seems to propose making the 222 Meridians Bi-mode in addition to the XC 221's.
 

northwichcat

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How can Birmingham to Manchester go over to electric when apart from early in the day the service runs from south of Brum ??

The through services to Bristol and Reading would end.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Speed improvement schemes for the following areas:
* London St Pancras International to Ramsgate;
* Bristol Temple Meads to Bridgwater;
* the East Coastway route (between Ashford (Kent) and Brighton);
* the West Croydon area;
* Birmingham New Street to Stansted Airport;
* the Wakefield Kirkgate area.
 

cle

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I thought Bristol - Bridgwater was done, or being done already?
 

HSTEd

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Surely third rail is not so inferior to 25kV as to justify ripping up functioning electrification to replace it with other electrification when there is so much of the country crying out for any electrification at all.
Its not as if making dual voltage rolling stock is even that challenging any more.
 

Flywaver

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Well im not crying out for electrification having driven electrics now on Diesels.. They should be looking at Hydrogen fuel cells.. I just see relying on Unsightly power lines that can cause so much agro when they are down miles away from the Train your on as obsolete. Only with more electrification we will see more Power Stations which won't be green energy either.. Electrification in recent years has also meant DOO and job losses. Fair enough on HSL and Railjet is a decent looking Train. Sadly the UK has gone anti loco hauled- Push pull. Just look at how it's gone on London Midland. All the way to Crewe on an EMU. It's **** poor!
 

HSTEd

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Well im not crying out for electrification having driven electrics now on Diesels.. They should be looking at Hydrogen fuel cells.. I just see relying on Unsightly power lines that can cause so much agro when they are down miles away from the Train your on as obsolete. Only with more electrification we will see more Power Stations which won't be green energy either.. Electrification in recent years has also meant DOO and job losses. Fair enough on HSL and Railjet is a decent looking Train. Sadly the UK has gone anti loco hauled- Push pull. Just look at how it's gone on London Midland. All the way to Crewe on an EMU. It's **** poor!

Where will the hydrogen for your hydrogen powered trains come from?
Most is either derived from the steam reforming of natural gas which produces a tonne of carbon dioxide and is probably worse than burning the gas in a power station for a variety of boring reasons, or is derived from electricity through electrolysis at which point its probably better to use said electricity.
Unless we man up and spam nuclear.
 

The Planner

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The through services to Bristol and Reading would end.

Maybe Im missing something here, so you are saying you would halve the services from Bristol and Reading ? or are we going bi-mode with something ? or you split the services to terminate at New St ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I thought Bristol - Bridgwater was done, or being done already?

Not yet, still early stages.
 

northwichcat

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Maybe Im missing something here, so you are saying you would halve the services from Bristol and Reading ? or are we going bi-mode with something ? or you split the services to terminate at New St ?

You're not understanding at all.

Network Rail are suggesting ordering new electric trains for Manchester to Birmingham services and cascading the Voyagers on to other parts of the XC network. This would obviously end through services between Manchester and Reading/Bristol. I'm just reporting what Network Rail have proposed.

As they haven't said anything about Edinburgh-Preston-Birmingham going over to electric traction maybe they are planning to extend this to Reading or Bristol again, but that's not something they say in the report.
 

Aictos

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What's wrong with 3rd rail? Electrification islands should be electrified on the type of electrification used in the area as a example, the Uckfield branch would be electrified on the 3rd rail and not OHL delivering much better fleet usage using existing 3rd rail trains.

Similarly the MML would see wires with the OHL being used.
 

WatcherZero

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The problem with 3rd rail is threefold.
1. Its not as efficent as 25kv, you get more lost power through transmission cables
2. You need a lot more substations to supply power
3. In certain parts of the South East the current system has reached its limit, with longer, faster, more frequent and more power hungry trains the 3rd rail cant supply enough power and they are having trouble with undervoltage supply on heavily used stretches. The power demands are now exceeding the physical capacity to supply and it will only get worse in the future.
 

davelew99

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Where will the hydrogen for your hydrogen powered trains come from?
Most is either derived from the steam reforming of natural gas which produces a tonne of carbon dioxide and is probably worse than burning the gas in a power station for a variety of boring reasons, or is derived from electricity through electrolysis at which point its probably better to use said electricity.
Unless we man up and spam nuclear.

A great method of getting Hydrogen is indeed using electricity, however for this it is quite straightforward to use 'solar farms' which use focussed sunlight with mirrors into a solar furnace which heats water and generates steam/provides power in the usual way.

It does only work in hot/sunny countries though which is why it's a good way to generate hydrogen instead of electricity as it can be more easily transported.
 

WatcherZero

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To supply Britains needs they would have to cover an area the size of Wales with solar panels. Its too space intensive for Britains needs and land supply, of course there are uses for it, covering home roofs with solar panels helps offset upto 80% of the homes heating or eletricity demands, however most energy is used in Industry and transport not in the domestic home.
 

davelew99

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Oh i agree, photovoltaic panels are a waste of time and money in this country.

The only reason renewables are profitable in the UK are due to ROCs or FITs (depending on who is generating it).
 

cle

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And to be fair, I don't think many people travel all the way to Crewe on EMUs!

Just as not many people travel from Liverpool to Norwich!

And by that I mean LM's 350s, not Pendos which are obviously EMUs also but not what the OP was referring to.
 

anthony263

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Seems the Cardiff - Manchester route is also down for possible electrification accoridng to what i have read on the FGW coffee shop forum.
 

northwichcat

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Seems the Cardiff - Manchester route is also down for possible electrification accoridng to what i have read on the FGW coffee shop forum.

It mentions extra diesel vehicles for interurban growth on TransPennine Express, Cross Country, Manchester-Chester and Manchester – Cardiff. However, then goes on to say that depending on the number of EMUs released from other routes and extent of new electrification that those new DMUs may become new/cascaded EMUs.
 

swt_passenger

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Seems the Cardiff - Manchester route is also down for possible electrification accoridng to what i have read on the FGW coffee shop forum.

But this was already being discussed in about half a dozen posts on page one of this thread, because it is part of Network Rail's plan.

There is therefore no point in quoting another forum as though it is new info...
 

anthony263

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But this was already being discussed in about half a dozen posts on page one of this thread, because it is part of Network Rail's plan.

There is therefore no point in quoting another forum as though it is new info...

Sorry, missed the 2nd post which showed the possible Cardiff - Manchester electrification.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Sorry, missed the 2nd post which showed the possible Cardiff - Manchester electrification.

Think you're getting a bit muddled.
Electrification of the Cardiff Valleys is mentioned, also the Manchester Triangle (Manchester-Liverpool-Preston-Blackpool).
But not Manchester-Cardiff (just more DMUs for growth - although this is at least a first reference to more trains for ATW).

Elsewhere, it mentions electrification of the link between GW and NL lines at Acton for freight. But nothing on Chester-Crewe or VT Voyager bi-mode.
I'm somewhat surprised that electrification of Leeds/Doncaster-Hull figures in advance of some other lines.
And what's the point of wiring the MML to Sheffield but not the 20 miles onwards to link it to the rest of the system at Doncaster/Moorthorpe?
 

ChiefPlanner

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This is the starting point for discussions - the final plan wont be agreed until early 2013, so very much to do yet. Dont assume the ideas are set in concrete.

Trans Pennine , by the way is continuing Victoria - Stalybridge - then via Huddersfield , Leeds and York. The tricky bits are done already ! Cant say anymore than that. Lets hope the many discussions to come are fruitfull.
 

tbtc

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What about Chester - Crewe electrification?

I didn't think it had been officially announced (just suggested that it could be asked for in a WCML tender bid), but then its not been suggested as a potential improvement either - does this mean its dead in the water?
 

barrykas

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Off-topic I know, but am I the only person who thought he'd fallen into a timewarp when reading the contents for the England and Wales IIP?

Specifically "London and South East Sector", "Long Distance Sector", "Regional Sector" and "Rail Freight Sector".

Cheers,

Barry
 

swt_passenger

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Off-topic I know, but am I the only person who thought he'd fallen into a timewarp when reading the contents for the England and Wales IIP?

Specifically "London and South East Sector", "Long Distance Sector", "Regional Sector" and "Rail Freight Sector".

No - that crossed my mind as well.

... and they even got them in the right order of priority for dishing out the funding... :D
 

northwichcat

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What about Chester - Crewe electrification?

I didn't think it had been officially announced (just suggested that it could be asked for in a WCML tender bid), but then its not been suggested as a potential improvement either - does this mean its dead in the water?

I seem to remember that suggestion was followed by the disclaimer that it would require a complete recast of North Wales/Chester to London services to utilise electric vehicles for Chester-London and any ideas for a complete recast of the WCML timetable would need to put forward by the bidders of the next WCML franchise.
 

WatcherZero

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This is Network Rails business plan, the Crewe Chester according to rumours is something the Dft is trying to sell in the WCML tendering as an optional extra, if so it would be Franchise led improvements.
 
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