Contradictory ticket advice?

[ticketqueries]

Hello and thank you for reading my post,

I am an intermittent rail user. From the ticket office in Manchester I requested and purchased an open return from there to station (X) with a 16-25 railcard. I was told that the journey is not far enough for an open return, however I could purchase a ticket to a station beyond my destination (Y) which would still prove a more economical option. I was very pleased with this advice.

I made the return journey on a 07.00 service this morning, and as part of a routine on-board inspection, I produced my ticket was informed by the conductor that it was not a valid fare. He advised that I would have to purchase a new ticket. I enquired about the reason for this, and was told that there is a minimum fare of £12 before 10.00am when using a 16-25 railcard. I responded to say I had not been informed of this rule at the time of purchasing the ticket (which was for £9.75), and the conductor made numerous remarks about how I will have seen a bold sign when I completed the form (I did not complete a form?) and various remarks which I didn't quite catch about being crafty and purchasing the ticket yesterday (the ticket was purchased last week, not yesterday). And so, I was utterly mortified, as these were not true or fair comments, yet agreed to purchase a new ticket. He then proceeded to enter into his machine a ticket from Y to Manchester. I informed him that I had in fact not travelled from Y, and only travelled from X, and that I would be pleased to buy a new ticket from X. The conductor refused to sell me a ticket from X, exclaiming that 'it is black and white' in front of him to sell me a ticket from Y. And so I calmly asked for an opportunity to discuss this with the ticket officers at my destination station. The conductor challenged why I wanted to do this, why I thought they would be different and then he asked, am I refusing to pay? I was at this point very embarrassed, and re-iterated that I would be happy to purchase a ticket from the station I had infact travelled from, but I would not purchase a ticket for a journey I had not made without an opportunity to discuss this further. The conductor then took my railcard, defaced it with illegible scrawl which I believe says 'advised minimum fare', and he copied my initial and surname onto a blank ticket which went into his pocket. At my destination this was resolved, and I took the first opportunity to write to the particular train company and explain the honest situation and complain about my experience with this conductor (his intimidating, demeaning attitude).

As the day has gone on, my concerns have grown! I can't help wonder:
- Why did he write my name down and will this have consequences?
- Did I do anything wrong by asking for an opportunity to discuss at the destination given that he would not sell me a ticket for the journey I had made?
- As part of my complaints letter I wrote 'I was made to feel like a criminal and a fraud. Am I going to be prosecuted?' which was meant as a rhetorical question, and now I'm worried that this could be perceived as an admission! (Though to what I'm not certain).

I have since explored and fully understand the minimum fare rule and will never do this again.

Your advice will be greatly appreciated.

Katie

 

[yorkie]

The Guard was right to say your ticket wasn't valid but should have issued an excess of the difference in fares, ie £2.25

I've activated your private message facility; feel free to draft up a letter, PM it to me if you like, and I will be happy to proof read it.

If you've already sent the letter, and they don't resolve it, let me know what you wrote and what they replied with.

It's not uncommon to be given incorrect advice and/or incur extra charges that are either unexpected or incorrect, as the UK rail industry doesn't generally have customer service high on the priority list. Fortunately, we're here to help!

 

[34D]

Surely what has happened is an SVR has been issued, rather than an AR which the user thought they were getting (due to asking for an open return)?

The Guard was right to say your ticket wasn't valid but should have issued an excess of the difference in fares, ie £2.25

If I'm right, the difference could well be more than the price stated.

Katie, can you name the stations involved, please?

 

[ticketqueries]

I travelled from Manchester to Widnes (X). I was sold a ticket to Liverpool Stations (Y) as I wasn't returning the same day. Yesterday morning I boarded the train at Widnes to make the return journey.

I was happy to buy a new ticket on-board from Widnes, but not Liverpool. I manage my railcard online so have no doubt that my address details will be saved on here should the senior conductor wish to write to me?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This was with East Midlands Trains.

Best wishes

Katie

 

[cuccir]

The guard's one correct point is that at some point in purchasing the Railcard, you will have agreed to the Terms and Conditions, stating the rule that there is a minimum fare of £12 before 10:00 (July/August excluded). Did you tell the original ticket seller what time you were travelling? It's not reasonable to expect them to remind every customer of this rule so they've only made an error if you've told them the time of both journeys and they've then sold this ticket.

All that said, it seems from what others have said that an excess should simply then have been offered, rather than the situation that the guard put you through.

 

[sarahj]

The Guard was right to say your ticket wasn't valid but should have issued an excess of the difference in fares, ie £2.25

I've activated your private message facility; feel free to draft up a letter, PM it to me if you like, and I will be happy to proof read it.

If you've already sent the letter, and they don't resolve it, let me know what you wrote and what they replied with.

It's not uncommon to be given incorrect advice and/or incur extra charges that are either unexpected or incorrect, as the UK rail industry doesn't generally have customer service high on the priority list. Fortunately, we're here to help!

Thanks Yorkie for taring us all with the same brush.

My only question here is, was the OP using an off peak ticket and returning before 9.00/9.30. Plus to excess the ticket for travel in the correct time you would have to excess the actual ticket. eg Manchester to Liverpool, not Widnes. As the OP was on the return portion, there is no proof that the OP did not go Manchester - Liverpool and was returning to Manchester from Liverpool and not Widnes. If you buy a stop/start short ticket as its cheaper, but return contary to the restrictions, or even excessing to min fare, the excess ticket will be an excess of the orginal.

As for writing down your name, I'm almost sure nothing will come of that. He marked your ticket 'min fare advised' to remind you of the rules and T&C's that you agreed to when you bought the ticket and so that you can never claim 'well nobody told me' again. (happens more than you think, people being told more than once.)

 

[LexyBoy]

Thanks Yorkie for taring us all with the same brush.

yorkie was referring to "the UK rail industry", not its staff, who vary from excellent to awful as in any industry. I wasn't sure if you were referring to guards or TOCs but I assume the former from this:

Ticket offices are now being told to sell what the punter asks for. Eg on a train I worked the other week a pass had got on at station X. I checked his ticket and was interested to note that the ticket was an anytime single to London Terminals priced over £20.00. The pass was going to Victoria where a super off peak single for around £14.00 could have been purchased. But it seems because the pass asked for a ticket to London and not Victoria, the pass was sold the ticked he had asked for. This sell what pass asks for it seems is now policy when I enquired back at base.

This is not good customer service policy. If a passenger asks for a ticket to London, they should be offered the cheapest ticket, doubly so if station X has direct services to Victoria. Not specifying a London Terminal implies they don't mind, rather than they want a ticket permitting travel to a range of stations.

 

[sarahj]

yorkie was referring to "the UK rail industry", not its staff, who vary from excellent to awful as in any industry. I wasn't sure if you were referring to guards or TOCs but I assume the former from this:



This is not good customer service policy. If a passenger asks for a ticket to London, they should be offered the cheapest ticket, doubly so if station X has direct services to Victoria. Not specifying a London Terminal implies they don't mind, rather than they want a ticket permitting travel to a range of stations.

This is from another thread, but whatever. I did not say I agreed with it, in fact told the passenger, and told him to complain. If I was able to sell him the new ticket and refund him the difference i would have done. When selling tickets on the train I always ask questions on to what the punter wants, what they are doing, when are they coming back. Some coming away pleasantly supprised. The only things I never offer is split tickets, unless the punter ask for them, but when I do, allways remind them of the restrictions .
(all of course within reason)

 

[yorkie]

Thanks Yorkie for taring us all with the same brush.

I can assure you that isn't the case, and as LexyBoy says (and I've said previously but you will have missed it) that staff can range from excellent, to awful. (and don't worry, from your posts, I'm sure you're excellent!)

I also agree with you that an excess would have to be to the original origin/destination. The ticket concerned is, we now discover, not an Anytime Return (SOR) formerly known as an Open Return, but actually an Off Peak Return (SVR) formerly known as a Saver Return. Details of the fare are here: MAN-LIV SVR, traditionally this ticket was valid at any time on both portions, but these days the outward has a "not before 0845" restriction, with the return remaining unrestricted as it always has been.

The customer should have been charged an excess fare on the whole ticket up to the £12.00 minimum, which would have been valid.

By the way, it was excellent customer service for the clerk at the Manchester station concerned to offer such a ticket, however some would argue that such a fare should not be offered under impartial retailing rules. I've removed details of which station it was from this thread, however if the OP has mentioned it in their letter, I hope that the Train Company receiving the letter does not forward the complaint to the Train Company whose staff should not have offered that ticket under impartial retailing rules...

Under impartial retailing rules, I think that the 'correct' tickets to be recommended are a £6.35 single for the outward, and a £9.60 single for the return (total £15.96).

The £12 ticket to Liverpool is valid and must be sold if the customer requests it, but technically I don't think it should be offered, by the rules.

 

[LexyBoy]

This is from another thread, but whatever. I did not say I agreed with it, in fact told the passenger, and told him to complain.

Exactly - it's an example of "the industry" being non-customer friendly, whilst many front-line staff go out of their way to help out.

 

[ticketqueries]

Thank you all for your quick responses which have greatly clarified how this system works.

At the ticket office I requested an 'open return' and did not understand that I should have specified that I may return in peak hours. (In the past I have not had an issue when I have travelled to Leeds with an 'open return', but I understand now that this could be due to my fare exceeding the minimum rule or I have been sold an 'Anytime' ticket - I've learnt something new). As Yorkie suggests, in the future I will use two single tickets where an 'Anytime' return is not available for my route - I would rather queue again and spend a few more pounds!

Sarahj, thank you for putting my mind to rest regarding my name being copied. I hope too that nothing comes of this!

Best wishes,

Katie

 

[yorkie]

...As Yorkie suggests, in the future I will use two single tickets where an 'Anytime' return is not available for my route - I would rather queue again and spend a few more pounds!...

Feel free to ask for advice on our Fares Advice & Policy forum for any journey, but for this particular journey, simply request an Off Peak Return to Liverpool, and state you'll be returning before 10:00, you needn't pay any more than £12. On weekends, public holidays and on any day in July/August, there is no £12 minimum, so the price drops to £9.65.

Good job rail fares are simple. Imagine if they were complicated...?!

 

[maniacmartin]

I think this is more accurate:

 

[sarahj]

This type of SVR is a new one on me. The ones we sell, such as to london, the punter cannot return before 09.00/09.30 mon-fri. These are of course ones valid in the Network area and is to stop commuters buying their ticket going home in the off peak and coming back in the peak. I guess you get bogged down in some rules when 99.99% of the ticket you sell are for travel in the network area.

Perhaps I should just go back to worrying about if I should have sold that ticket with a B3 restriction for a 8 min journey at 08.56.

 

[tony6499]

Obviously the original ticket was sold in good faith but in trying to be too clever the ticket clerk came unstuck, maybe he should have asked what time you were returning before selling the original ticket ?

The conductor was right in selling the excess from Liverpool as that is what your ticket stated.

 

[LowLevel]

Oop north there's loads of SVRs with odd restrictions about the time of day they can be used - not before 0430 is a fairly common one which makes it effectively an any time ticket. There's a reasonable number of people who travel between Manchester and Liverpool who buy an off peak return, making the outward journey in the restriction free afternoon and the return journey in the morning when the return is valid on any train. This saves a few quid per day on the anytime day return fare.

I would agree it seems very harsh to me - no railcard at all is certainly discretionary between the excess and a new ticket (EMT do offer a system whereby for one time only you can claim back the cost for a forgotten railcard new ticket/excess providing you can produce the railcard at a later date at a booking office), however the minimum fare not being applied I'd always go for the excess as it requires applying specifically and if both the clerk/guard and the passenger fail to consider it particularly when buying in advance it's easily missed.

The excess would have to be from Liverpool though or a new ticket from Widnes which would be more expensive than the excess from Liverpool.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The conductor was right in selling the excess from Liverpool as that is what your ticket stated.

I don't think he sold the excess, he charged the OP for a brand new single ticket.

 

[northwichcat]

excess would have to be from Liverpool though or a new ticket from Widnes which would be more expensive than the excess from Liverpool.

Yes as I see it the most straight forward tickets available for the OP's journey:

Outward journey: £6.35 single ticket (with railcard)
Return journey: £9.60 single ticket (no rail discount as it's under £12 before 10am)

Total £15.95

As only single and day returns are available for Manchester-Widnes.

However, a return ticket is available for Manchester-Liverpool which allows you to return the next day - the £14.60 Off Peak Return - which is £9.65 with a railcard if travelling after 10am or £12.00 with a railcard otherwise.

Had the ticket clerk sold the £12 option then someone could have complained saying they were made to pay £2.35 more than they should have done.

I don't think the OP has said which operator she travelled with - Northern or East Midlands Trains. I recall there being an incident where an EMT guard wrongly refused to sell off-peak tickets to people boarding at Widnes during hours when the ticket office was closed.

 

[tony6499]

I don't think he sold the excess, he charged the OP for a brand new single ticket.

But charging from the station quoted on the ticket is correct, also charging for a new ticket is correct in the situation which was confused by getting on at somewhere in between

 

[Starmill]

If Katie would like to make the journey again in similar circumstances, notwithstanding getting around or paying the minimum fare, one might suggest the purchase of a Manchester - Hough Green Off-Peak Return instead of Liverpool? It's the same price, but if you only wish to travel to and from Widnes then it would do just as good and may help clarify your intentions if anything else goes wrong?

 

[Moonshot]

Just had a quick read of this thread.......it just confirms just how stupidly complicated the whole ticketing system is.

 

[yorkie]

Just had a quick read of this thread.......it just confirms just how stupidly complicated the whole ticketing system is.

You're absolutely right!

Anyway I strongly advise the OP to contact Passenger Focus if EMT do not give an acceptable response. I am happy to proof read the letter.

Until EMT respond, I suggest we leave it there.

 

[Qwerty133]

You're absolutely right!

Anyway I strongly advise the OP to contact Passenger Focus if EMT do not give an acceptable response. I am happy to proof read the letter.

Until EMT respond, I suggest we leave it there.

Any idea if it was one of the 'usual suspects'?

 

[Moonshot]

You're absolutely right!

Anyway I strongly advise the OP to contact Passenger Focus if EMT do not give an acceptable response. I am happy to proof read the letter.

Until EMT respond, I suggest we leave it there.

Yes I know I m right ....I do this everyday as part of my job. Its also no co incidence that in your own role as " Fares Advisor " on this forum, you yourself are by far the top poster in sheer number of posts, which is no doubt indicative of the huge number of queries generated.

Makes me wonder just what would be required as the absolute minimum to cover all requirements for the fare paying public.....