Contactless payment on Nottingham Express Transit

[AY1975]

NET (and Nottingham City Transport buses) has recently introduced contactless payment, allowing users to simply tap their contactless debit or credit card on the validator before boarding the tram (or when boarding the bus). New contactless-enabled validators have been installed at tram stops and on NCT buses. In due course the system is also to be extended to Linkbus services.

There does not appear to be any mention of this facility on the NET website at https://www.thetram.net/ but there is a separate Nottingham Contactless website at https://nottinghamcontactless.co.uk/

I presume the same validators are also used for smartcards just like the previous validators at tram stops were.

 

[station_road]

Interesting that TrentBarton aren't included in this, even though their parent company are part of the consortium running NET and already have a contactless payment system

 

[ChrisC]

Interesting that TrentBarton aren't included in this, even though their parent company are part of the consortium running NET and already have a contactless payment system

I don’t know much about how these things work but was wondering whether it perhaps would conflict with TrentBartons own contactless payment system and their daily caps. Interesting that new City Transport contactless payment system includes NCT buses right out into the county as far as Southwell.

Although the City of Nottingham is often commended for its integrated public transport and ticketing, once you venture beyond the city boundary into the county council area, everything becomes very disjointed and expensive.

I like to have a day out each week using public transport and including a reasonable length walk but always plan carefully where I go so that I am only using one operator. As there is no multi-operator ticket in the county, using more than one operator in the county can quickly see your bus tickets costing over £12 in total.

 

[Jozhua]

I don’t know much about how these things work but was wondering whether it perhaps would conflict with TrentBartons own contactless payment system and their daily caps. Interesting that new City Transport contactless payment system includes NCT buses right out into the county as far as Southwell.

Although the City of Nottingham is often commended for its integrated public transport and ticketing, once you venture beyond the city boundary into the county council area, everything becomes very disjointed and expensive.

I like to have a day out each week using public transport and including a reasonable length walk but always plan carefully where I go so that I am only using one operator. As there is no multi-operator ticket in the county, using more than one operator in the county can quickly see your bus tickets costing over £12 in total.

I feel your pain when I cross the border into Derbyshire, or further out into the borderlands...

The politics are very different between the city/county. Remember Nottingham City is a unitary authority, giving it control over county and district council services. Interesting to note that the transport situation is much better in the Labour controlled city area...

 

[Aayron]

The contactless card payment seems to be working well and it being promoted on the scrolling timetable displays. I wonder how the inspectors are now going to tell if you have a valid ticket. The haven't been checking tickets since the start of the pandemic but used come round the tram to read everyone's ITSO smartcard. The smartcard gets written to when you tap-in on a validator so they know if you have checked-in recently. With bank cards nothing gets written so they don't know if you have actually paid. I guess they know the following day when they can reconcile card payments with checked cards but that is a bit late.

I think TFL buses get round this by letting the inspector download a list of checked-in bank cards from the bus ticket machine so they know who has checked in on the bus. NET can't do this as the validators are not actually on the tram and you might have validated seconds before boarding. Any ideas?

 

[edwin_m]

The contactless card payment seems to be working well and it being promoted on the scrolling timetable displays. I wonder how the inspectors are now going to tell if you have a valid ticket. The haven't been checking tickets since the start of the pandemic but used come round the tram to read everyone's ITSO smartcard. The smartcard gets written to when you tap-in on a validator so they know if you have checked-in recently. With bank cards nothing gets written so they don't know if you have actually paid. I guess they know the following day when they can reconcile card payments with checked cards but that is a bit late.

I think TFL buses get round this by letting the inspector download a list of checked-in bank cards from the bus ticket machine so they know who has checked in on the bus. NET can't do this as the validators are not actually on the tram and you might have validated seconds before boarding. Any ideas?

Isn't the TfL solution just to scan the card and it gets uploaded overnight and checked against a database? That way anyone who wasn't recorded as paying for the journey they were recorded as carrying out receives a fine through the post. Less confrontation for the inspectors, and also gets round issues of someone who touched in a just before, but there was some communication glitch so it hasn't been uploaded from the reader and downloaded to the inspector.

 

[zero]

Isn't the TfL solution just to scan the card and it gets uploaded overnight and checked against a database? That way anyone who wasn't recorded as paying for the journey they were recorded as carrying out receives a fine through the post. Less confrontation for the inspectors, and also gets round issues of someone who touched in a just before, but there was some communication glitch so it hasn't been uploaded from the reader and downloaded to the inspector.

There is no way to know who was (or wasn't) using a particular card that was not recorded as having touched a reader, much less their address.

TfL records the card number. Not entirely sure what happens on a London tram but on trains etc you just get charged the maximum fare if something is not right. If a card is misused too many times it will be blacklisted, and the inspection readers do have a list of blacklisted cards.

I expect a penalty fare would be charged to the card if the reconciliation shows it was inspected with no recent touch-ins.

It would not conflict with any other system (such as Trentbarton) because each operator would record the taps on their own database and charge the card independently.

 

[martin2345uk]

How does it work with Apple Pay where the card number is kept hidden from the reader?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How does it work with Apple Pay where the card number is kept hidden from the reader?

Apple Pay hides the originating card number but substitutes it for a virtual card number, so there is still one to track. The same one is used all day for the same merchant (I don't know on what basis it is changed) so capping still works.

 

[A Challenge]

Apple Pay hides the originating card number but substitutes it for a virtual card number, so there is still one to track. The same one is used all day for the same merchant (I don't know on what basis it is changed) so capping still works.

Presumably it must be longer than daily as the weekly capping works?

 

[Starmill]

I don't think that you can get someone's name and address from their card number, which would be needed in order to issue an invoice or to send court papers if you were to allege fare evasion. However, you can make a charge for using the card in a manner non-compliant with the Contactless terms & conditions i.e. that you must touch in at the start and out at the end of every journey.

 

[Joshua_Harman]

Presumably it must be longer than daily as the weekly capping works?

IDK About Apple, but Android pay is Always the same virtual card number (different for each card, but always the same) so perhaps they use the same system, or perhaps the system can tell its the same device being used?

 

[Bletchleyite]

IDK About Apple, but Android pay is Always the same virtual card number (different for each card, but always the same) so perhaps they use the same system, or perhaps the system can tell its the same device being used?

Google Pay doesn't necessarily appear to abstract the card number. I used it to pay for a Trainsplit booking and the receipt contained the last 4 digits of the physical card. That does not happen with Apple Pay as Apple do not expose it.

 

[Starmill]

Google Pay doesn't necessarily appear to abstract the card number. I used it to pay for a Trainsplit booking and the receipt contained the last 4 digits of the physical card. That does not happen with Apple Pay as Apple do not expose it.

In my experience if you're doing a cardholder not present transaction through Google Pay it doesn't use the virtual card at all. It's literally just storing your card number for you.

It does if you use contactless.

 

[Skittle]

I don’t know much about how these things work but was wondering whether it perhaps would conflict with TrentBartons own contactless payment system and their daily caps. Interesting that new City Transport contactless payment system includes NCT buses right out into the county as far as Southwell.

Although the City of Nottingham is often commended for its integrated public transport and ticketing, once you venture beyond the city boundary into the county council area, everything becomes very disjointed and expensive.

I like to have a day out each week using public transport and including a reasonable length walk but always plan carefully where I go so that I am only using one operator. As there is no multi-operator ticket in the county, using more than one operator in the county can quickly see your bus tickets costing over £12 in total.

This. I've moved recently from Fife to Ilkeston and it's a shock and a half to the system - it's much busier than where I grew up and then moved to in fife so I assumed () transport would be as well integrated but I cant even go 10 mins down the road with likely needinga change of transport.

I am trying to find ways to get christian onto a team to get into Nottingham centre as he is as in love with trams as trains but so far it's like 1 or 2 changes on a bus and then sizable walk to the tram stops. Might need tk investigate just bussing it to the centre and finding a good place to go from the centre on a tram.

But quick question - contact less as in just flat out contact less like stagecoach or does it work like trentbarton where tap on and off the service?

 

[setdown]

Apple Pay hides the originating card number but substitutes it for a virtual card number, so there is still one to track. The same one is used all day for the same merchant (I don't know on what basis it is changed) so capping still works.

The card issuer creates a number specific to that device and card combination. Typically it stays the same indefinitely until a new one is needed (for example after expiry or your physical card being reported as lost). The number is sent in an encrypted form and is decrypted on-device, Apple has no clue what it is, interestingly enough.

 

[johncrossley]

so I assumed () transport would be as well integrated

What on earth gave you that idea? Did you think Ilkeston is in Switzerland?

 

[BJames]

I noticed actually that the physical NET ticket machines at some stops (definitely the station and Gregory Street, but Meadows Way West didn't appear to have them when I glanced out) have also been upgraded - before, you could only insert your card (so no Apple/Google Pay) but they've got the contactless option now too. Although as you can just tap on at the readers, this is now less necessary than before.

 

[Okowsc]

There is no way to know who was (or wasn't) using a particular card that was not recorded as having touched a reader, much less their address.

TfL records the card number. Not entirely sure what happens on a London tram but on trains etc you just get charged the maximum fare if something is not right. If a card is misused too many times it will be blacklisted, and the inspection readers do have a list of blacklisted cards.

I expect a penalty fare would be charged to the card if the reconciliation shows it was inspected with no recent touch-ins.

It would not conflict with any other system (such as Trentbarton) because each operator would record the taps on their own database and charge the card independently.

NET have an interesting approach to this issue, They can see if you tapped in with contactless or not, as (unsure if NCT do it) NET contactless will accept it offline (similar to TFL and ticketer), then immediatly in the background trigger an auth hold for either £2.50 or £0.10, it's so quick that at nottingham station you can tap in, turn around to board the waiting tram and step on board to have your bank notify you!

I have been inspected a few times, including once 2 stops after boarding and they see the stop and the last 4 of the card (presumably the virtual card as I used Google Pay), once when I presented the wrong card to the RPI after tapping in at clifton P&R it came up INVALID NO TAP ON and the RPI questioned me about it before letting me leave (I suspect deciding it wasnt worth trying to PF me).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2022 ==

I noticed actually that the physical NET ticket machines at some stops (definitely the station and Gregory Street, but Meadows Way West didn't appear to have them when I glanced out) have also been upgraded - before, you could only insert your card (so no Apple/Google Pay) but they've got the contactless option now too. Although as you can just tap on at the readers, this is now less necessary than before.

There are some ticket options where it's cheaper to buy a paper ticket then tap due to the lack of tap out on NET's system.

 

[AY1975]

There are some ticket options where it's cheaper to buy a paper ticket then tap due to the lack of tap out on NET's system.

Yes, such as the short hop single fare for travel within any one of the short-hop zones. This is currently £1 but I presume it's going up to £1.20 from next week. I've set up a separate thread on the NET fare rises at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nottingham-tram-fares-to-rise-from-28th-march.229612/