Contactless PAYG in the Thames Valley

[plugwash]

Why would that be? If the touch is not registered, you effectively have no ticket.

AIUI theoretically if you fail to touch in before travelling you are travelling without a ticket and could be liable for a penalty fare or prosecution.

In practice TFL either can't or won't provide information on contactless touch ins or the lack thereof in real time to revenue inspectors (either their own or those of the other operators on which their contactless scheme is valid). I suspect the issue is that they could build such a system that mostly worked, but it would sometimes fail to work and then cause a ****storm when people were incorrectly accused of ticketless travel because a network link went down.

By the time the backend reconciles the touches and determines that someone was revenue-inspected who has not touched in, the time to gather information for a penalty fare or prosecution has passed.

If you do it too many times they will block the card and that *is* visible to the revenue inspectors but afaict if you replace the card after a failed revenue inspection there is little they can do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2022 ==

Notwithstanding the fact it’s not valid, if you touched in at Reading and took Southwestern to Waterloo with no onboard ticket check, how much would you get charged?

Interesting question, the "single fares finder" says "no fares found".

Theoretically I think it's possible to get from Reading to the rail platforms at waterloo without passing through an intermediate gateline and without leaving the PAYG area but it would require a very roundabout route. Something like Reading->Ealing broadway->Earls Court->West Brompton->Clapham Junction->Waterloo.

 

[Haywain]

In practice TFL either can't or won't provide information on contactless touch ins or the lack thereof in real time to revenue inspectors (either their own or those of the other operators on which their contactless scheme is valid). I suspect the issue is that they could build such a system that mostly worked, but it would sometimes fail to work and then cause a ****storm when people were incorrectly accused of ticketless travel because a network link went down.

It’s more likely to do with not being able to transmit card details to hundreds (thousands?) of devices in real time while satisfying PCI DSS requirements.

 

[SynthD]

For the purposes of revenue protection, how many groups of gate lines are there at Reading? I’ve heard before they can tell the fast GWRs from the TfL Rails, what about the SWR and the GWR semi fasts?

 

[cactustwirly]

For the purposes of revenue protection, how many groups of gate lines are there at Reading? I’ve heard before they can tell the fast GWRs from the TfL Rails, what about the SWR and the GWR semi fasts?

3 sets of gatelines.

Old station entrance next to platforms 4-6, new entrance for 1-3 and 7-15, plus the northern entrance on Vastern Road

 

[181]

For the purposes of revenue protection, how many groups of gate lines are there at Reading? I’ve heard before they can tell the fast GWRs from the TfL Rails, what about the SWR and the GWR semi fasts?

3 sets of gatelines.

Old station entrance next to platforms 4-6, new entrance for 1-3 and 7-15, plus the northern entrance on Vastern Road

But all platforms are accessible from all gatelines, so which gateline a passenger uses doesn't indicate which platform they arrived at or are going to depart from. (It might show a statistical likelihood of having arrived from/planning to depart from the Waterloo/Guildford direction rather than elsewhere, or vice versa, but no more than that).

 

[swt_passenger]

For the purposes of revenue protection, how many groups of gate lines are there at Reading? I’ve heard before they can tell the fast GWRs from the TfL Rails, what about the SWR and the GWR semi fasts?

They can’t tell anything from which particular gateline is used. TfL don’t have their own platforms anyway, you can have TfL and XC either side of the same island for example. And as well as what @181 noted about probability of certain routes using the old gateline, I think people using the ticket office or the adjacent shops will still tend to come into the station that way.

 

[Watershed]

It’s more likely to do with not being able to transmit card details to hundreds (thousands?) of devices in real time while satisfying PCI DSS requirements.

I think that's a common myth, a bit like the "sorry, data protection" excuse often rolled out when someone wants to avoid doing something.

I see no reason why a suitably anonymised version of card numbers (e.g. hashed) couldn't be sent out and compared to the cards that are inspected. But the timelag and lack of mobile signal/WiFi in tunnels and some other areas is much more likely to be a deal-breaker.

 

[Haywain]

I think that's a common myth, a bit like the "sorry, data protection" excuse often rolled out when someone wants to avoid doing something

As I said, I think the volume is a big part of that but it’s not simple data protection - PCI DSS tends to make other data protection look easy!

 

[MikeWh]

It’s more likely to do with not being able to transmit card details to hundreds (thousands?) of devices in real time while satisfying PCI DSS requirements.

I think that's a common myth, a bit like the "sorry, data protection" excuse often rolled out when someone wants to avoid doing something.

I see no reason why a suitably anonymised version of card numbers (e.g. hashed) couldn't be sent out and compared to the cards that are inspected. But the timelag and lack of mobile signal/WiFi in tunnels and some other areas is much more likely to be a deal-breaker.

I'm pretty sure that the card numbers are hashed before transfer to/from the central system. There is however a delay between touches registering on a local computer and being transmitted to the central database. You can tell how much by querying "travel today" on the tfl account page and seeing how long it takes for touches to appear. I do this all the time and my experience is minimum of about 2 minutes and maximum when working* of about 10 minutes for stations and 15 minutes for buses. There is no way that a revenue protection system could work if it had to allow for 10 minutes to have passed before a card could be checked.

* there are times when querying the central database isn't available so I haven't included those in the figures.

I don't believe that stations report touches one at a time, rather they are batched and sent every five minutes or so.

 

[plugwash]

The trouble with hashing card numbers is they aren't really long enough. A card number is 16 digits, but one of those is a check digit. And another 6 identify the institution, so that only leaves 9 digits for the cards from a given bank.

9 digits works out to about 30 bits which is trivial to brute force search, even all 15 digits (excluding the check digit) only works out to about 50 bits which is still well within the bounds of brute force feasibility.

 

[island]

The trouble with hashing card numbers is they aren't really long enough. A card number is 16 digits, but one of those is a check digit. And another 6 identify the institution, so that only leaves 9 digits for the cards from a given bank.

9 digits works out to about 30 bits which is trivial to brute force search, even all 15 digits (excluding the check digit) only works out to about 50 bits which is still well within the bounds of brute force feasibility.

That presupposes you know what type of card the hash relates to; most banks have several 6-digit BINs for different types of cards. And I'd be extremely surprised if they weren't salted anyway.

 

[davews]

I'm pretty sure that the card numbers are hashed before transfer to/from the central system. There is however a delay between touches registering on a local computer and being transmitted to the central database. You can tell how much by querying "travel today" on the tfl account page and seeing how long it takes for touches to appear. I do this all the time and my experience is minimum of about 2 minutes and maximum when working* of about 10 minutes for stations and 15 minutes for buses. There is no way that a revenue protection system could work if it had to allow for 10 minutes to have passed before a card could be checked.

In my experience none of my journey's appear on my TFL account page until the following day. The two I made yesterday weren't there last night but there this morning.

Yesterday also showed me how silly the TFL zonal system of charging for contactless is, ie worked out on how many zones TFL think you went through.
Richmond to Park Royal via Hammersmith (they assume you will change twice via Turnham Green/Acton Town) taking 45 minutes - £1.70
Ravenscourt Park to Richmond - £1.80 taking half the time but 3 zones and not 2.
(and on the outward journey I had passed through Ravenscourt Park twice...)

 

[JonathanH]

In my experience none of my journey's appear on my TFL account page until the following day.

They appear on the TfL website on the 'my account' page on the day and then under the 'journey history' and 'payment history' on the Contactless page the next day.

 

[MikeWh]

In my experience none of my journey's appear on my TFL account page until the following day. The two I made yesterday weren't there last night but there this morning.

Today's travel appears lower down the dashboard, as per this screenshot (except I haven't gone anywhere today):

Yesterday also showed me how silly the TFL zonal system of charging for contactless is, ie worked out on how many zones TFL think you went through.
Richmond to Park Royal via Hammersmith (they assume you will change twice via Turnham Green/Acton Town) taking 45 minutes - £1.70
Ravenscourt Park to Richmond - £1.80 taking half the time but 3 zones and not 2.
(and on the outward journey I had passed through Ravenscourt Park twice...)

This is one of the benefits of Oyster. You pay for the journey even if you take a longer distance route. A common example is Neasden (3) to Baker Street which is charged zone 1-3 even if you go via Wembley Park (4) for the fast Met service.

 

[hkstudent]

In my experience none of my journey's appear on my TFL account page until the following day. The two I made yesterday weren't there last night but there this morning.

Yesterday also showed me how silly the TFL zonal system of charging for contactless is, ie worked out on how many zones TFL think you went through.
Richmond to Park Royal via Hammersmith (they assume you will change twice via Turnham Green/Acton Town) taking 45 minutes - £1.70
Ravenscourt Park to Richmond - £1.80 taking half the time but 3 zones and not 2.
(and on the outward journey I had passed through Ravenscourt Park twice...)

The reason why the system is by default thinking you change at Turnham Green is due to Piccadilly Line trains call at Turnham Green during early hours and late nights. So that's still one interchange.

Though as a side question: don't know why oyster system isnt charged by the number of zones crossed but the maximum and minimum zone used, which makes cross London journeys very cheap; like Moor Park to Upminster is charged as the same as Queensway to West Ruislip with the latter is only about half the distance of former.

 

[JonathanH]

Though as a side question: don't know why oyster system isnt charged by the number of zones crossed but the maximum and minimum zone used, which makes cross London journeys very cheap; like Moor Park to Upminster is charged as the same as Queensway to West Ruislip with the latter is only about half the distance of former.

Indeed. This sort of thing causes difficulties as the PAYG system is extended out because the benevolence of allowing Zone 6 to Zone 6 fares within London for the same price as Zone 6 to Zone 1 means there is a step change for journeys from outside London - eg West Drayton to Romford costs £5.50 peak single / £3.50 off-peak single (and £3.30 / £2.70 going via the North London Line) while Iver to Romford costs £11.20 / £7.50 (or £7.60 / £4.70 via the North London Line).

Any journey from the Contactless area in the Thames Valley to a destination on the far side of London is cheaper if it is broken at West Drayton.

 

[Non Multi]

Hayes and Harlington with its higher service frequency was my preference for splitting / switching between DfT/GWR fare pricing and TfL pricing on Oyster.

 

[swt_passenger]

The reason why the system is by default thinking you change at Turnham Green is due to Piccadilly Line trains call at Turnham Green during early hours and late nights. So that's still one interchange.

Though as a side question: don't know why oyster system isnt charged by the number of zones crossed but the maximum and minimum zone used, which makes cross London journeys very cheap; like Moor Park to Upminster is charged as the same as Queensway to West Ruislip with the latter is only about half the distance of former.

I think TfL always accepted long distance cross London journeys as being relatively cheap under the concentric ring zone model, because they believed the vast majority of expected single journeys were only into the centre and back again. The travelcard based daily cap already dealt with anything involving multiple journeys.

 

[James H]

Someone has FOIed the daily and weekly caps:

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

 

[JonathanH]

Someone has FOIed the daily and weekly caps:

This is interesting stuff.

As the Contactless PAYG area expands, it will be the responsibility of the relevant Train Operating Companies to include information about pricing. Although TfL provides the infrastructure to support Contactless PAYG, it has no remit for setting, detailing or defending Train Operating Companies’ fares policy.

Where are the TOCs going to publish information about extensions fares and caps? They largely leave what information is in the public domain to be the remit of TfL as far as I can see.

 

[plugwash]

Someone has FOIed the daily and weekly caps:

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

I looked at the line for marlow and unsurprisingly found the prices were equal to the corresponding travelcards.

 

[Watershed]

Someone has FOIed the daily and weekly caps:

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

That response is a load of rubbish. TfL may not be the fare setter but they are the still the party that ultimately processes the payments and that you need to contact if you want a refund (e.g. for being overcharged). By definition, they must hold information about the caps - otherwise how would they know what to charge?

This smacks of "this has got nothing to do with us" :

 

[JonathanH]

That response is a load of rubbish. TfL may not be the fare setter but they are the still the party that ultimately processes the payments and that you need to contact if you want a refund (e.g. for being overcharged). By definition, they must hold information about the caps - otherwise how would they know what to charge?

Yes, but the point TfL's respondent is making is that TfL don't want people to question them about the fares being charged. They are effectively just processors and doing what the TOCs / RDG / DfT tell them to do.

You are right that TfL could (and should) publish more information about fares outside the Zones but, at some point, there is going to have to be some sort of TOC single fare finder that is much more comprehensive than what TfL offers, including extensions, caps and other information.

This page on GWR's website just directs people to TfL for any problems.
https://www.gwr.com/your-tickets/choosing-your-ticket/smart-tickets/contactless-payments

As contactless pay as you go is based on single fares, it may not always be the cheapest way to pay for a journey. Find out more about pay as you go fares.

is just a link to the TfL single fare finder.

For journeys involving stations Reading through to Iver, capping levels are the same as the paper Travelcard fares to London Zones 1-6 for Anytime Day (Peak), Off-Peak Day and Weekly Season tickets. Details of these caps can be found here.

is a link to the TfL site which shows the caps.

If I have a problem with contactless pay as you go, who do I need to contact?
Contactless pay as you go is run by Transport for London.

• Telephone: 0343 222 1234 ( charges may apply)
• Textphone: 0800 112 3456

directs people to TfL.

Given that Contactless PAYG is likely to be the primary way of paying for fares in the South East region within the next two years, I hope that part of the implementation plan does include making it straightforward to know what is going to be charged.

 

[plugwash]

You are right that TfL could (and should) publish more information about fares outside the Zones but, at some point, there is going to have to be some sort of TOC single fare finder that is much more comprehensive than what TfL offers, including extensions, caps and other information.

I get the impression that extension fares are something the industry really don't want to publicise, because they are often higher than point to point fares to avoid the combination of cap and extension fare undercutting the intended fares for the through journey.

Given that the system of caps and extension fares is essentially a discount and the "full price" fares are published in the single fares finder, is there anything that would legally force the operator of the PAYG scheme to publish details of the caps and extension fares?

 

[Watershed]

I get the impression that extension fares are something the industry really don't want to publicise, because they are often higher than point to point fares to avoid the combination of cap and extension fare undercutting the intended fares for the through journey.

Given that the system of caps and extension fares is essentially a discount and the "full price" fares are published in the single fares finder, is there anything that would legally force the operator of the PAYG scheme to publish details of the caps and extension fares?

FoI, albeit TfL have relied upon exemptions to refuse to release these details. I think that would certainly be open to challenge.

Under the Consumer Rights Act, if no specific price is agreed for a service in advance, only so much as is "reasonable" in the circumstances may be charged. That means that although TfL do not have to reveal prices under the Act, they cannot charge more than is reasonable, and here I would say that some of the overpriced extension fares are open to being challenged, particularly where they are much more than the equivalent point to point fares.

The system of caps is not a discount at all, it is an inherent part of the way the system operates.

 

[Jamiescott1]

On the marlow branch the conductor just made an announcement to remember to touch out at Marlow if using contactless

 

[JonathanH]

On the marlow branch the conductor just made an announcement to remember to touch out at Marlow if using contactless

Maybe it is now live. The single fare finder now longer says it isn't but I can't find an announcement from GWR or TfL that says that it is.

 

[MikeWh]

On the marlow branch the conductor just made an announcement to remember to touch out at Marlow if using contactless

Maybe it is now live. The single fare finder now longer says it isn't but I can't find an announcement from GWR or TfL that says that it is.

I think it might be. I had a tip off from a contact at TfL that it was imminent, but nothing from GWR press team and the website still says it's not yet available. I'll try and find out tomorrow.

You won't find announcemnets from TfL because they are taking a very back seat if the stations aren't served by them. It's up to the TOCs to run the publicity, with quotes from TfL if they ask.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2022 ==

Well I've just received an email from GWRs press team confirming that it went live on May 22nd. Must have been overwhelmed by all the Lizzie line publicity.

 

[JacobWrenn]

Did these stations used to have the yellow readers that were for season tickets on smart cards? If so what happened to them? I’m mostly interested to know what will happen to these readers when contactless eventually reaches my local stations.

 

[swt_passenger]

Did these stations used to have the yellow readers that were for season tickets on smart cards? If so what happened to them? I’m mostly interested to know what will happen to these readers when contactless eventually reaches my local stations.

I think usually the same readers are used for both purposes.