Contactless Fare TFL / GWR

[ajhard]

Hi there - I’m hoping you can help me with a fare query, apologies if this is the wrong place.

Last week I travelled from London City Airport DLR to Reading NR, leaving London City at 18:44
I used the same contactless card each time, and tapped 6 times.
1 - London City Airport DLR Entry 18:44
2 - West India Quay DLR Exit 19:04
3 - Canary Wharf Elizabeth Line Entry 19:06
4 - Paddington Elizabeth Line Exit 19:31
5 - Paddington NR Entry 19:42
6 - Reading NR Exit 20:40

I have been charged a single Peak fare for the whole journey as I started before 7pm (£34.20).

If it was treated as two journeys (London City to Paddington, and then Paddington to Reading) I would have paid £17.10 (crazily both parts being off peak as there is no afternoon peak on the TFL portion!!).

I submitted a request to TFL to be refunded and they refused on the basis that I was charged correctly. I appreciate that if I had thought of this before I could have used two separate cards, but it does seem unfair that the combination of journeys is being used to charge me more, when I understood the ‘feature’ was to save money for travellers.

Any thoughts, am I wasting my time challenging?

Thanks

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's one journey on one card, you could use a different card to split at Paddington. It's like asking a TOC for a refund because a split was available but you bought a through ticket.

 

[PeterC]

It's one journey on one card, you could use a different card to split at Paddington. It's like asking a TOC for a refund because a split was available but you bought a through ticket.

Just what I was going to say.

Going back to the OP there is a peak/off peak difference on the TfL portion, just proportionately less that the GWR one.

Contactless outside London is politically driven.

 

[ajhard]

Just what I was going to say.

Going back to the OP there is a peak/off peak difference on the TfL portion, just proportionately less that the GWR one.

Contactless outside London is politically driven.

According to the TFL Single Fare Finder there is only a morning peak for a journey between London City Airport and Paddington.
I guess I have to suck it up, but feels like the ‘system’ designed to save me money has doubled my journey cost…

 

[Horizon22]

Contactless outside London is politically driven.

Eh? Contactless outside London was to improve accessibility and ease of use for passengers. It has however had consequences which weren't unintended - at least to those in the know - but perhaps unexpected for many, due to the change in peak/off-peak/super off-peak travel as the balance of flexibility in fares v simplicity has changed.

 

[Hadders]

According to the TFL Single Fare Finder there is only a morning peak for a journey between London City Airport and Paddington.
I guess I have to suck it up, but feels like the ‘system’ designed to save me money has doubled my journey cost…

Your journey wasn’t to Paddington, it was to Reading. The fares and restrictions to Paddington are irrelevant.

This is the sort of thing can happen with any fare system - whether traditional tickets or contactless.

It’s the sort of thing ‘us’ on here like to get our heads around to get the best value fare, but as with anything in life you have to do your research.

 

[blimmo]

For the future, what should OP do to avoid this?

Touch onto a bus at an interchange to break the OSI?

Buy a paper ticket? (split where?)

I notice a paper ticket for the full journey is only marginally cheaper than the peak contactless fare. https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=0791&dest=RDG&tkt=CDS

 

[Wallsendmag]

Use two cards

 

[MikeWh]

Going back to the OP there is a peak/off peak difference on the TfL portion, just proportionately less that the GWR one.

According to the TFL Single Fare Finder there is only a morning peak for a journey between London City Airport and Paddington.

Correct. There is no afternoon peak for journeys that end in zone 1.

For the future, what should OP do to avoid this?

Touch onto a bus at an interchange to break the OSI?

Given the difference in fares that would be a sensible solution, unless...

Use two cards

Assuming they have two cards.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Would a card in a digital wallet and a physical card be seen as different cards?

 

[Hadders]

Correct. There is no afternoon peak for journeys that end in zone 1.

Given the difference in fares that would be a sensible solution, unless...

Assuming they have two cards.

Or pop and get a coffee at Paddington and let the OSI time out (40 minutes iirc).

 

[londonbridge]

Last week I travelled from London City Airport DLR to Reading NR, leaving London City at 18:44
I used the same contactless card each time, and tapped 6 times.
1 - London City Airport DLR Entry 18:44
2 - West India Quay DLR Exit 19:04
3 - Canary Wharf Elizabeth Line Entry 19:06
4 - Paddington Elizabeth Line Exit 19:31
5 - Paddington NR Entry 19:42
6 - Reading NR Exit 20:40

I have been charged a single Peak fare for the whole journey as I started before 7pm (£34.20).

If it was treated as two journeys (London City to Paddington, and then Paddington to Reading) I would have paid £17.10 (crazily both parts being off peak as there is no afternoon peak on the TFL portion.

Tapping out of the Elizabeth Line and then straight back in to National Rail activated an OSI. You could have got this treated as two seperate journeys by waiting forty minutes tapping back in at Paddington. If forty minutes would have meant missing your Reading train you could also have broken the OSI by leaving the station, tapping in on any bus, and then getting straight off before tapping in at the NR gateline. I think this might have resulted in an additional charge for the bus but you would still have saved money over what you ended up paying.

Edited to reflect Hadders post, I now think it is forty minutes, not twenty as I initially said.

 

[MikeWh]

Would a card in a digital wallet and a physical card be seen as different cards?

Yes.

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

Doesn't the back-end system attempt to find the cheapest fare? I would have thought that multiple tap-ins straddling the peak/off-peak threshold would be a prime candidate and the OSI would be broken automatically.

 

[MikeWh]

Doesn't the back-end system attempt to find the cheapest fare? I would have thought that multiple tap-ins straddling the peak/off-peak threshold would be a prime candidate and the OSI would be broken automatically.

If they did that then it would also have to happen at the other end of the peak, so the same journey starting at 1545 would end up being peak for the Paddington to Reading part.

The back end will only break OSIs if doing so avoids an incomplete journey or two. For example making a circular journey like Crayford to Shadwell Overground, Shadwell DLR back to Crayford via Woolwich Arsenal.

 

[jon81uk]

Or pop and get a coffee at Paddington and let the OSI time out (40 minutes iirc).

In this case where the journey started at 18.44, just waiting 15 minutes at the start would have pushed it into off-peak anyway.

 

[ajhard]

If they did that then it would also have to happen at the other end of the peak, so the same journey starting at 1545 would end up being peak for the Paddington to Reading part.

The back end will only break OSIs if doing so avoids an incomplete journey or two. For example making a circular journey like Crayford to Shadwell Overground, Shadwell DLR back to Crayford via Woolwich Arsenal.

I disagree - perfectly possible for the system to consider the options and offer the cheaper fare in each scenario, ie off-peak for a journey as one where the ‘start‘ is off peak, and splitting to offer the cheaper combination where the ‘start’ is peak but a portion is off-peak.

I feel particularly agrieved in this case as there is no afternoon peak for the section that was before 7pm in any case…

 

[akm]

Doesn't the back-end system attempt to find the cheapest fare? I would have thought that multiple tap-ins straddling the peak/off-peak threshold would be a prime candidate and the OSI would be broken automatically.

If they did that then it would also have to happen at the other end of the peak, so the same journey starting at 1545 would end up being peak for the Paddington to Reading part.

The back end will only break OSIs if doing so avoids an incomplete journey or two. For example making a circular journey like Crayford to Shadwell Overground, Shadwell DLR back to Crayford via Woolwich Arsenal.

I disagree - perfectly possible for the system to consider the options and offer the cheaper fare in each scenario, ie off-peak for a journey as one where the ‘start‘ is off peak, and splitting to offer the cheaper combination where the ‘start’ is peak but a portion is off-peak.

I feel particularly agrieved in this case as there is no afternoon peak for the section that was before 7pm in any case…

The back end software does what it's been told to. It hasn't been told to break OSIs to give a cheaper fare. Obviously it could be told to do that, so it's as "possible" as anything else that can be accurately and precisely specified. It could also be told to break OSIs over a peak/offpeak transition if and only if it would make things cheaper; it wouldn't have to be both-or-nothing.

 

[MikeWh]

it wouldn't have to be both-or-nothing.

Whilst I agree with this statement, I can't see the DfT sanctioning other than break peak/off-peak or don't break. I also think it's easier to understand if it's one or the other.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Or pop and get a coffee at Paddington and let the OSI time out (40 minutes iirc).

It would also be possible to buy a ticket to Reading at Paddington from a machine, the booking office or on their phone.

 

[fandroid]

In this case where the journey started at 18.44, just waiting 15 minutes at the start would have pushed it into off-peak anyway.

This looks to have been the simplest solution for that particular journey on that day. The OP was obviously partially aware of the offpeak charge, but not the complication of the Paddington OSI meaning that the whole journey did not end in Zone 1.

 

[ajhard]

This looks to have been the simplest solution for that particular journey on that day. The OP was obviously partially aware of the offpeak charge, but not the implications of the Paddington OSI meaning that the whole journey did not end in Zone 1.

Yes - I had looked up the Paddington to Reading fare and knew I would be off peak, never occurred to me it would all be bundled into a single journey. Next time I’ll hold back 15 mins or more likely use a separate contactless card for the 2 halves…

 

[Hadders]

Yes - I had looked up the Paddington to Reading fare and knew I would be off peak, never occurred to me it would all be bundled into a single journey. Next time I’ll hold back 15 mins or more likely use a separate contactless card for the 2 halves…

If you’re doing a journey using contactless it’s always worth checking out the fare before travelling.

For example, I used to have an Oyster card with a railcard discount applied. Travelling from Stevenage to somewhere like South Kensington in the evening peak it is cheaper to change at Finsbury Park because journeys into Zone 1 have no evening peak restriction (and therefore benefit from the railcard discount). Change at Kings Cross it’s a Zone 1 journey with an evening peak restriction and so no railcard discount.

The answer is perhaps that fares and restrictions should be simplified. The problem with that is simplification almost always results in fares becoming more expensive.

 

[Crithylum]

An OSI can be broken by tapping in, out, and back in again when making the transfer

 

[JonathanH]

If you’re doing a journey using contactless it’s always worth checking out the fare before travelling.

That is definitely true although here, I think the original poster is effectively arguing about an out of station interchange being a break point in a journey.

Had the original poster stayed on the Elizabeth Line all the way from Canary Wharf to Reading, rather than changing trains at Paddington, the system would have had no way of splitting the journey. They also aren't arguing that the touch out / touch in at West India Quay / Canary Wharf should have been a split.

I think most people can agree that the opposite situation - a OSI for a off-peak journey at peak times - is advantageous for the user, and evens out the situation for a journey that avoids an OSI.

The practical point is needing a way of reliably breaking the journey to a users advantage in the same way that stepping back a train at a normal barrier would offer.

An OSI can be broken by tapping in, out, and back in again when making the transfer

Does doing that on the barriers at Paddington mainline station having started at London City Airport charge a mixed mode fare? (I don't know)

 

[MikeWh]

An OSI can be broken by tapping in, out, and back in again when making the transfer

It can sometimes, but not always. In this instance it would try to charge a City Airport to Paddington NR fare, which doesn't exist. There will be a fare assigned, but it's anyone's guess what it would be. The other issue is that you might end up getting a passback error.

 

[bcarmicle]

Could you break it correctly by:

1. Tapping out at Paddington EL
2. Tapping in at Paddington EL (starting a new journey)
3. Tapping out at Paddington EL
4. Tapping in at Paddington NR (using OSIs)

Or would step 3 result in a same-station exit penalty that couldn't be corrected by the OSI?

 

[fandroid]

This thread prompted me to look at a few alternatives for paying for the OP's journey.

It unearthed some prices that made my eyebrows twitch in shock!

Is a contactless Off-Peak journey from Paddington to Reading (£14.00) really cheaper than a conventional Off-Peak single with Railcard discount (19.50)?

Wow! I must immediately drop my reluctance to use contactless which stemmed from the fact that Railcard discounts aren't available.

The same wide gap seems to apply for intermediate journeys on that line too.

 

[MikeWh]

Is a contactless Off-Peak journey from Paddington to Reading (£14.00) really cheaper than a conventional Off-Peak single with Railcard discount (19.50)?

Yes. Fares on the Reading line are pre-Oval so single fares have not been reduced to half the return fares.

 

[redreni]

Yes. Fares on the Reading line are pre-Oval so single fares have not been reduced to half the return fares.

But other fares to Reading valid via Paddington, and valid to start short, have been.