Contactless expansion Pink validators

[ddf87]

Morning All,

Just been looking up my usual journey which up until now has been on a paper ticket but it seems we have finally been added to the contactless network which saves a lot of faff buying tickets.

However it seems if you use the single fare finder there is no option to avoid zone 1 from the new extended stations...

Specifically I am travelling from Stanford-le-Hope to neasden which can avoid zone one via barking and gospel oak but it will not give me that option on the single fare finder.... Stations along the route into London such as Grays and chafford give you the option but none of the expansion stations.

Is the single fare finder correct in this manner or would a pink validation give the reduced fare?

Thanks in advance.

 

[akm]

The options that single fare finder shows are the only options there are; you won't be charged something else, no matter what you do between entry and exit.

(ignoring complications around exceeding maximum journey times, or getting capped for multiple journeys on the same day/week, etc etc)

 

[JonathanH]

Is the single fare finder correct in this manner or would a pink validation give the reduced fare?

The single fare finder will be correct. There is no advantage to using a pink reader if no cheaper fare is defined for using it.

There will be journeys crossing London from the extension area where it is advantageous to touch out and back in at the interchange station to break the journey.

 

[ddf87]

Perfect thanks for the replies, seems it's back to paper tickets for now then!

 

[CyrusWuff]

No additional pink (route) validators have been installed for Project Oval Phase 1. So in an inverse of the usual logic, getting a "Not via Zone 1" fare (where these have been set by the relevant TOC) relies on not touching en route in some cases.

 

[Watershed]

Morning All,

Just been looking up my usual journey which up until now has been on a paper ticket but it seems we have finally been added to the contactless network which saves a lot of faff buying tickets.

However it seems if you use the single fare finder there is no option to avoid zone 1 from the new extended stations...

Specifically I am travelling from Stanford-le-Hope to neasden which can avoid zone one via barking and gospel oak but it will not give me that option on the single fare finder.... Stations along the route into London such as Grays and chafford give you the option but none of the expansion stations.

Is the single fare finder correct in this manner or would a pink validation give the reduced fare?

Thanks in advance.

Welcome to the forum.

Pink validators only prove the route you took. They don't inherently mean you will get a cheaper fare - that relies on a cheaper fare being defined, which isn't always the case.

Generally speaking, the 'Project Oval' contactless extensions have involved simply taking the existing paper fare structure and having the return fares. If no 'avoiding Zone 1' fare was previously defined, I don't think they have created one in many (if any?) instances.

For now, it looks like your cheapest option involves a combination of PAYG fares, touching out and back in at an intermediate station (i.e. effectively "split ticketing"). To make sure that the two journeys don't get joined up by the TfL system and charged as the through fare, it's a good idea to use a different card for each part of the journey.

If you split at West Hampstead (between the Overground and Tube stations) the daily cost, assuming peak time travel in both directions, would be £11.60. If you split at Barking, it's £10.20. Cheapest of all would be to split at Rainham or Upminster, costing £9.30.

Splitting at West Hampstead doesn't involve any hassle as you're changing stations anyway. At Barking (and possibly Upminster?) there are yellow readers within the barriers so you don't need to exit the station to touch in. However, splitting at Rainham would likely require you to exit the station barriers and touch back in, in other words you'd probably have to step back onto the next train.

You could buy paper tickets for the first part of the journey from Stanford-le-Hope in each case to avoid having to touch out, but you still need to touch in for the remainder of the journey so this doesn't help you much with splitting at Rainham.

I think it's worth contacting c2c, as they control the fares for travel from Stanford-le-Hope to most London area destinations, asking them to look into adding 'avoiding Zone 1' fares so that splitting like this isn't necessary for the best fare.

The expansion of contactless is supposed to make travel simpler but in many cases it only makes it more complicated to get the best value fare!

 

[JonathanH]

At Barking (and possibly Upminster?) there are yellow readers within the barriers so you don't need to exit the station to touch in.

Good for switching between 'paper' and PAYG but not so good for breaking a journey. Don't you need to wait two minutes between touch out and touch in for standalone barriers?

 

[Watershed]

Good for switching between 'paper' and PAYG but not so good for breaking a journey. Don't you need to wait two minutes between touch out and touch in for standalone barriers?

Yes, however you can use different cards (as advised above) to get around this, or buy the Stanford-Barking ticket in paper/smartcard/eTicket format, which costs the same as PAYG.

 

[ddf87]

As much as I appreciate the wizards you all are and the cheapest journey there is already the existing Stanford to z3 paper ticket which is 9.30 already so there is kind of a precedent for avoiding zone 1 and as someone mentioned before c2c set the fares so they already do this with Grays onwards already.... Will reach out to them to see how they respond

 

[jon81uk]

As much as I appreciate the wizards you all are and the cheapest journey there is already the existing Stanford to z3 paper ticket which is 9.30 already so there is kind of a precedent for avoiding zone 1 and as someone mentioned before c2c set the fares so they already do this with Grays onwards already.... Will reach out to them to see how they respond

Although a Stanford to Z3 paper ticket isn't the same as Stanford to Neasdon avoiding zone 1, so I would say there isn't a precedent.

 

[Watershed]

As much as I appreciate the wizards you all are and the cheapest journey there is already the existing Stanford to z3 paper ticket which is 9.30 already

Can you clarify what you're referring to here, as I can't immediately find a fare for £9.30?

so there is kind of a precedent for avoiding zone 1

There is for some journeys, but for origins outside the Zones it is not always possible to buy an 'avoiding Zone 1' ticket to the other side of London. That's long been the case.

and as someone mentioned before c2c set the fares so they already do this with Grays onwards already.... Will reach out to them to see how they respond

Journeys from outside the Zones are priced by the relevant TOCs. Journeys within the Zones are priced by an agreement between the TOCs and TfL, as I understand it, so it's not quite the same.

Inboundary fares were also created in the 2000s, where providing cheaper fares was seen as important. Nowadays making things 'simple' is more important, even if that involves charging higher fares. It's also worth noting that inboundary PAYG fares were created to effectively replace paper fares (which were hugely increased in price), so it was important to provide a reasonable set of options for every journey. For journeys from stations like Stanford, paper fares aren't punitively priced so replicating every aspect of the paper structure isn't as important.

 

[ddf87]

Can you clarify what you're referring to here, as I can't immediately find a fare for £9.30?


There is for some journeys, but for origins outside the Zones it is not always possible to buy an 'avoiding Zone 1' ticket to the other side of London. That's long been the case.


Journeys from outside the Zones are priced by the relevant TOCs. Journeys within the Zones are priced by an agreement between the TOCs and TfL, as I understand it, so it's not quite the same.

Inboundary fares were also created in the 2000s, where providing cheaper fares was seen as important. Nowadays making things 'simple' is more important, even if that involves charging higher fares. It's also worth noting that inboundary PAYG fares were created to effectively replace paper fares (which were hugely increased in price), so it was important to provide a reasonable set of options for every journey. For journeys from stations like Stanford, paper fares aren't punitively priced so replicating every aspect of the paper structure isn't as important.

Sorry the fare is £9.20 not £9.30 sorry the confusion!

In terms of no precedent Grays is also out of the zones and is on the same line as Stanford, even Tilbury town which is one stop away from Grays is in the same boat as Stanford despite you needing to go through Grays from either station to get into London.

 

[JonathanH]

Is a Stanford-le-Hope to Zone 3 paper ticket even valid for interchange at West Hampstead? Wouldn't a ticket including Zone 2 be needed, not that it is much more expensive?

 

[ddf87]

Good point! It is the £9.50 u2356 ticket I get good catch

Is a Stanford-le-Hope to Zone 3 paper ticket even valid for interchange at West Hampstead? Wouldn't a ticket including Zone 2 be needed, not that it is much more expensive?

 

[redreni]

Out of interest, for fares purposes where is the NR to LU interchange considered to be on the proposed journey from Stanford-le-Hope to Neasden? Is it Barking? Or West Hampstead?

Is there anything authoritative that establishes the validity of U zone tickets on London Overground?

 

[Haywain]

Out of interest, for fares purposes where is the NR to LU interchange considered to be on the proposed journey from Stanford-le-Hope to Neasden? Is it Barking? Or West Hampstead?

There are a number of possibilities, such as Upminster, Barking, West Ham, Stratford as well as West Hampstead (there may well be others).

 

[ddf87]

Yes the journey is Stanford-le-Hope -->Barking--> Gospel Oak--> West Hampstead --> Neasden

Didn't even consider that the u Ticket wasn't valid on the overground just figured it was one journey to a Z3 station

 

[Haywain]

Didn't even consider that the u Ticket wasn't valid on the overground just figured it was one journey to a Z3 station

It is valid on the Overground as part of a journey to an Underground destination.

 

[JonathanH]

It is valid on the Overground as part of a journey to an Underground destination.

...and West Hampstead is a valid interchange between National Rail and London Underground.

However, what I think is going on here is a bit of misapplied "structural reform". The the Stanford-le-Hope to Zones U2356 London ticket is a "Project Oval" single fare, and true enough, touching in at Stanford-le-Hope and out at Canary Wharf or Bermondsey is £9.50 single on PAYG. For journeys where the interchange is made at an interchange involving the London Overground, this isn't provided for touch out, even though the paper equivalent is valid.

Presumably the intention for this pricing is that it is considered appropriate for destinations on the east side of London, but not further west. This can be controlled by the individual PAYG fares by destination, but only by routeing on the paper tickets.

As already pointed out, the different pricing within London, where Cross London travel isn't penalised (other than by the mixed mode premium) means it is cheaper to touch in and out on route than using the through fare to Neasden.

 

[redreni]

Yes the journey is Stanford-le-Hope -->Barking--> Gospel Oak--> West Hampstead --> Neasden

Didn't even consider that the u Ticket wasn't valid on the overground just figured it was one journey to a Z3 station

I'm not saying it isn't.

I'm probably just a bit slow on the uptake: when TfL took over the Goblin and the Richmond-Stratford line from Silverlink they didn't get rid of the point-to-point fares, so you don't have the Elizabeth Line core situation where tickets to stations on those lines have to be issued to the relevant zone. Nor EDIT were those lines was the Goblin added to the list of interavailable routes (the Richmond to Stratford line is on the interavailable list).