Consumption of Alcohol on trains

[Flamingo]

In all fairness sometimes they are to be found on the station concourse rather than say on the platform.

With regard to your second point they have at least done their best to be pro-active. Once again, please try and remember that their resources are limited.

In Paddington the concourse can be seen from the platforms, and I will be on both at different stages. If there was a visible presence, I would see it, indeed I look out for it as it's useful to know where they are.

I know their resources are limited (as are ours). I still say that they don't use what they have effectively (I don't think any of the other train staff on the site will disagree with me) - and their own Chief Constable said this on taking up position a few years ago.

As regards my second point, it was the near total refusal of traincrew to work those trains that prompted management to pressure BTP to provide the presence, not an independent decision by them to police a known trouble-spot.

 

[asylumxl]

I do wonder if the BTPs seemingly reluctant attitude is also due to their limited numbers. It can't be good for staff morale I'm sure...

 

[the sniper]

The main BTP visible presence in my experience is at 11am, twelve hours later they are nowhere to be seen.

In my past experience at 11:15am you'd come across a mental health/drunk involved in a TI/S5 POA. The rest of the shift (plus a couple more hours over the end) would be spent chauffeuring, babysitting &/or restraining the PIC, collecting witness statements and preparing a file.

As you're familiar with BTP shift strengths Flamingo, I imagine you'll be able to appreciate that this can take up a large percentage of your manpower at any one station. If you want to get it done quicker everyone on the shift could be working on this one incident, thus they aren't on the platforms/concourses. If something else gets called in within however many miles of the station, your shift is spread even thinner. If there's a fatality on top of this, god help every poor sod in the place, as they're unlikely to get more than 4 hours sleep before they're back in for the next shift. There's no Hidden for BTP. 24hr shifts aren't unheard-of. If a 12hr shift only lasts 12hrs you've done well!

Someone mentioned there being no BTP on the trains. Though this would be great, if BTP go riding around on trains, there's no one in their place to respond to any incidents that get called in or arrive at major stations. They also can't respond to cable thefts, trespassers, fatalities or anything on the freight side (which people don't think about), ect. There are neighbourhood & tactical support teams (though the latter have different commitments), but staffing these comes at the expense of staffing response shifts.

I'm sure people can appreciate that BTP are spread thin, but some people seem to think that if BTP didn't exist, everything would be much better. My view is it wouldn't. The locals wouldn't turn out to a good number of the jobs the BTP do, and certainly would provide the services of CID to the railway for jobs that the BTP do. Why? Because the locals are almost as overstretched as BTP. At least with the BTP the industry could improve it's police service, sadly there isn't the inclination from most of the TOCs to put their money where their mouth is.

 

[wensley]

The real challenge once you refuse someone travel is finding a BTP officer willing to get rid of the oik in question...such fun was had at York last weekend!

The abusive passenger got the message after the third attempt to sneak through

Banning drinking altogether on trains would help immensely, but if someone has been out on the drink for several hours there is just as much chance that the situation has already gone too far. Pubs on railway stations certainly don't help, sticking with York, pax who miss the 1tph to Middlesborough often adjourn to one or the other of the convenient station boozers and get even more tanked up before staggering onto the next service. Not good at all

 

[Flamingo]

I do wonder if the BTPs seemingly reluctant attitude is also due to their limited numbers. It can't be good for staff morale I'm sure...

I'm sure you are right. But it's not very good for our morale on late trains either, if managements mantra is "Call BTP and don't cause confrontation", when you know that BTP are in single digits 10 or 15 miles away, and the drunk / druggie who has been assaulting / spitting at / abusing you and or your passengers, or damaging your train is going to walk away with impunity - and they know it as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In my past experience at 11:15am you'd come across a mental health/drunk involved in a TI/S5 POA. The rest of the shift (plus a couple more hours over the end) would be spent chauffeuring, babysitting &/or restraining the PIC, collecting witness statements and preparing a file.

As you're familiar with BTP shift strengths Flamingo, I imagine you'll be able to appreciate that this can take up a large percentage of your manpower at any one station. If you want to get it done quicker everyone on the shift could be working on this one incident, thus they aren't on the platforms/concourses. If something else gets called in within however many miles of the station, your shift is spread even thinner. If there's a fatality on top of this, god help every poor sod in the place, as they're unlikely to get more than 4 hours sleep before they're back in for the next shift. There's no Hidden for BTP. 24hr shifts aren't unheard-of. If a 12hr shift only lasts 12hrs you've done well!

Someone mentioned there being no BTP on the trains. Though this would be great, if BTP go riding around on trains, there's no one in their place to respond to any incidents that get called in or arrive at major stations. They also can't respond to cable thefts, trespassers, fatalities or anything on the freight side (which people don't think about), ect. There are neighbourhood & tactical support teams (though the latter have different commitments), but staffing these comes at the expense of staffing response shifts.

I'm sure people can appreciate that BTP are spread thin, but some people seem to think that if BTP didn't exist, everything would be much better. My view is it wouldn't. The locals wouldn't turn out to a good number of the jobs the BTP do, and certainly would provide the services of CID to the railway for jobs that the BTP do. Why? Because the locals are almost as overstretched as BTP. At least with the BTP the industry could improve it's police service, sadly there isn't the inclination from most of the TOCs to put their money where their mouth is.

I fully recognise all the points you are making, and agree with them. The bottom line is, however, that a visible uniformed presence does act as a deterrent. There is a more visible presence in daylight than after dark, and this comes down to there being more BTP officers and PCSO's on duty in daylight than after dark. This is something that they could address without throwing a lot of extra money at the problem.

Maybe the problem could be alleviated by the TOC's putting more uniformed security on the trains and stations themselves, rather than increasing the money they give BTP? This would provide the visible presence, and deterrent, and free up BTP for their other duties.

 

[the sniper]

I do wonder if the BTPs seemingly reluctant attitude is also due to their limited numbers. It can't be good for staff morale I'm sure...

If it wasn't for the feeling of being part of the family and the number of years many have put in, I don't think there'd be many people left in the BTP! What with the hours, the work load, the nature of the work, various internal factors and the screwing of the conditions/pensions...

 

[jon0844]

Aren't most of the FCC funded officers actually just PCSOs?

Besides Finsbury Park and King's Cross, I can't say I recall seeing BTP officers in a bright uniform anywhere else that often - if I do, I notice (and so must others).

Potters Bar has a BTP office but it doesn't appear to be used as I've never seen officers there. Forget about stations like Hatfield or Stevenage for all but the token stings with RPIs and local police (that are so effective you would wonder why they're not carried out on a daily basis up and down the line).

As a passenger, I accept there are many issues but I still want to see more officers out and about and not merely patrolling a terminus giving out information to confused travellers. That's a commendable part of the job and a friendly face to the public but it's also a bit of a cop out (sic) with regards to what train crew and passengers need.

 

[island]

I think even a slightly increased BTP presence would do wonders. I understand there are not many BTP officers about, but I'm sure that most of the traveling public would appreciate it. I think a lot of people can feel intimiated by large groups of drunkard people returning from big events etc.

Given that the BTP (like many other police) could be in an office filling out forms...

And more PCSOs is the solution to no problem that I am aware of.

 

[221129]

Would it not be easier to hand the Policing over to the territorial Forces? They have the man power and will generally end up attending the same incidents as the BTP. (Well down here they do.) They also use the same Lockups.

 

[Flamingo]

Would it not be easier to hand the Policing over to the territorial Forces? They have the man power and will generally end up attending the same incidents as the BTP. (Well down here they do.) They also use the same Lockups.

Lots of specialist knowledge required for going onto the railway.

 

[221129]

Lots of specialist knowledge required for going onto the railway.

Ahh true..

 

[bAzTNM]

ScotRail recently introduced a ban on all services between 9pm and 10am.

http://www.scotrail.co.uk/alcohol-ban

I've not seen it implemented though. Seen it happen probably over 20 times. Ticket Examiner, quite rightly, doesn't want to get involved. Police handle that stuff.

 

[Flamingo]

To be fair, there was a BTP presence on the concorse in Pad yesterday evening. He did look lonely, though

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Why penalise the majority of travellers and introduce more (usually costly) legislation for the acts of a few who break the rules? If people are causing problems then there are enough current laws to cover ant-social behaviour they just need to be enforced properly.

See how effective TfL's alcohol ban is tomorrow night.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Why penalise the majority of travellers and introduce more (usually costly) legislation for the acts of a few who break the rules? If people are causing problems then there are enough current laws to cover ant-social behaviour they just need to be enforced properly.

See how effective TfL's alcohol ban is tomorrow night.

Exactly

 

[asylumxl]

I think in the case of TfL and Scotrail it's supposed to act as a deterrent rather than be a practically enforcable ban.

For shorter services anyway, I don't see why a ban should be viewed as penalising everybody. If you can't wait 15-30 minutes for a drink I think you may have a problem.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Remember going watching Slayer at Ally Pally in May and tube after was rammed full of ****pots with Cans of Lech and Stella and these seemed like locals and regular tube users than people attending events.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I think in the case of TfL and Scotrail it's supposed to act as a deterrent rather than be a practically enforcable ban.

For shorter services anyway, I don't see why a ban should be viewed as penalising everybody. If you can't wait 15-30 minutes for a drink I think you may have a problem.

I do agree and short local journies seem to be where people drinking the likes of cider, mad brew beers and spirits is more prevalent (The North London Line being a noticeable case in point in spite of a ban).
The kind of alcohol consumed and the places where they are consumed have become more of a general social problem though and aren't confined to railways. There are dry zones in towns but as with the train bans, the people who they generally target don't usually take any notice of them.
A policy of pricing people out of the smaller local pubs in to the large drinking barns of the pubcos and cheap supermarket alcohol (including nice sweet fizzy alco drinks for the kids) have played their part in the change from a more controlled drinking culture to an alcohol guzzling culture.

 

[greg tingey]

The real problem is for people carrying bottles of wine as presents - then finding that their train is "banned" because it is going to be half-full of moronic football thugs - which, of course, they diodn't know about when they booked their tickets a couple of months previously.

It can be a real nuisance.

 

[asylumxl]

The real problem is for people carrying bottles of wine as presents - then finding that their train is "banned" because it is going to be half-full of moronic football thugs - which, of course, they diodn't know about when they booked their tickets a couple of months previously.



It can be a real nuisance.

Is this from experience of a fictional scenario?

 

[ert47]

The real problem is for people carrying bottles of wine as presents - then finding that their train is "banned" because it is going to be half-full of moronic football thugs - which, of course, they diodn't know about when they booked their tickets a couple of months previously.

It can be a real nuisance.

I think the ban is on the consumption of alcohol on public transport, not actually carrying it :/

 

[island]

The real problem is for people carrying bottles of wine as presents - then finding that their train is "banned" because it is going to be half-full of moronic football thugs - which, of course, they diodn't know about when they booked their tickets a couple of months previously.

It can be a real nuisance.

As I understand it, the ban normally prohibits open containers and consumption of alcohol.

 

[badger1badger]

ScotRail recently introduced a ban on all services between 9pm and 10am.

http://www.scotrail.co.uk/alcohol-ban

Does this apply to the west highland sleeper services I.e the residents on board lounge ?

 

[ainsworth74]

From the very link you're quoting:

A ban on the consumption and carrying of alcohol on board our trains (except the Caledonian Sleeper) seven days a week between 9pm and 10am.

 

[badger1badger]

From the very link you're quoting:

Thanks