Constant minor delays due to cancellations

[Gareth1990]

I know it’s easy for me to say, but something needs to be done about this, the overcrowding especially at weekends is becoming dangerous, will it take a crushing incident for TfL to take notice?

 

[Benjwri]

is there a specific line you mean, there are varying reasons for it across lines? What would you suggest is done? A lot of the issues require time and money to fix, the layer of which there is a shortage of, but TfL is trying to fix them.

If you have serious concerns about crushing at a specific station you should contact TfL, but there are management procedures for overcrowding which are routinely used.

 

[Gareth1990]

is there a specific line you mean, there are varying reasons for it across lines? What would you suggest is done? A lot of the issues require time and money to fix, the layer of which there is a shortage of, but TfL is trying to fix them.

If you have serious concerns about crushing at a specific station you should contact TfL, but there are management procedures for overcrowding which are routinely used.

The Jubilee line, at stations such as Waterloo it does become in my opinion dangerous. Really they should bring in a temporary timetable instead of allowing trains to bunch with large gaps in between.

 

[Mawkie]

Every station has a CCEP (Congestion Control and Emergency Plan) - specific to each individual station. This plan identifies high risk points around stations that are prone to overcrowding; that could be platforms, cross passages, escalators, etc. The plans are somewhat dynamic and can even account for passenger flows during the morning and evening peak periods, or for example during football fixtures, or concerts. They take into account the needs of people with disabilities, such as visually impaired, hearing impaired, and wheelchair users. They are reviewed annually, and after major changes to station infrastructure, such as building works or lifts.

CCEPs are implemented by Customer Service Supervisors (or Managers) based on the CCEP and a dynamic risk assessment - these CSSs and CSMs often have decades of experience in dealing with crowd control measures on their stations. Likewise, and with similar levels of experience, Customer Service Assistants will understand what measures need to be taken when crowd control is implemented - this can be closing a number of gatelines (making them exit only), closing some entrances to the station entirely, making the station 'exit only' for a duration of time, changing the route direction indicators around the station to influence passenger flows and a whole host of other measures.

All of this is supported with close communication with the line controllers, who also have vast operational knowledge, to determine actual risk - as an example, I have certainly run empty trains from Northfields depot to first pick up at Hyde Park Corner during Winter Wonderland. This scoops up hundreds of people in one go and suddenly there is no congestion problem.

During day-to-day working Trackernet allows staff to see how many trains are coming along the pipe and how far away they are. At the same time, the station CCTV allows Supervisors to see every platform, passageway, and gateline - every nook and cranny in fact. All of the above feeds into the decision making process done by Supervisors.

It's rather amusing to hear from observers who assume that London Underground haven't noticed some of their stations are busy and that they haven't thought about and made a plan.

Edited for typo

 

[Class15]

The OP makes a good point, though - that a temporary timetable would be a good idea.

 

[penfold22]

I think what the OP certainly appears to be hinting at are the increased number of delays at weekends - the "Minor Delays due to Train Cancellations" message. About as informative as "If it's dry outside it hasn't rained."

I will put this as diplomatically as I can - and not put myself in the firing line of my own employers.

We still have a fair number of Train Operator shortages network-wide. It is a lot better than it was 18 months ago but there is still a way to go. From a business perspective, LUL concentrate their resources onto weekdays. Unfortunately this does mean weekends can then suffer as there is a larger shortfall of T/Ops.
Weekend footfall is lower overall, however that footfall is made largely up by tourists / strangers to London and to be honest I don't think it shines us in a very good light for those getting their first impressions of us. Our weekend timetables are reduced versions of weekday ones. What we have never done (despite suggestions) is have a different service pattern at weekends.

The "Train Cancellation" message has been criticised openly by myself and my colleagues, as has the criteria for showing minor delays (the Circle Line operates every 10 minutes, and has to have 2 consecutive cancellations - a 30 minute gap - to be shown as "Minor Delays." A single cancellation and the line status stays as "Good Service.")

Unfortunately, until things change, it will be left to people like us Line Controllers to manage services and intervals as best we can - which if the timetable and T/Op availability worked, would not need to be done.

 

[Mawkie]

Unfortunately, until things change, it will be left to people like us Line Controllers to manage services and intervals as best we can - which if the timetable and T/Op availability worked, would not need to be done.

Certainly on the Pic, there is an overnight Teams call to establish the level of service that can be achieved the following day based upon various factors, but including Train Operator availability. Presumably that's the same across all lines?

What I'm hinting at is that there is a huge recognition of the risks around congestion on stations and platforms and there is a multi-faceted approach to proactively dealing with it. Of course, identified issues can only be rectified within the confines of budgetary constraints.

So I'm saying it's disingenuous to suggest that TfL are waiting for a crushing incident before they "take notice". They have noticed, they do notice, they continually notice, and they already do a massive amount of work before a train even leaves a depot, and that work continues across the day and beyond. And when I say beyond, the train cancellations attributed to Operator Not Available (ONA) are recorded and viewable by managers across the network who dicuss the impacts of that on a daily basis.

 

[Tube driver]

a number of weekend drivers are currently going through training which should hopefully start to alleviate some of the issues over the next few months as they start to pass out.

 

[Watershed]

Severe delays on the Victoria line tonight due to train cancellations...

 

[Brooke]

TFL often say they are committed to “transparency” and “accountability”.

Yet the delays due to “train cancellations” continue and seem (anecdotally) to be creeping up again, even on weekdays.

 

[Mawkie]

TFL often say they are committed to “transparency” and “accountability”.

Yet the delays due to “train cancellations” continue and seem (anecdotally) to be creeping up again, even on weekdays.

I don't really understand this comment. TfL publish their service performance online.

Underground services performance

Performance figures showing how many people use the Tube, how trains are performing, etc.

tfl.gov.uk

 

[speedy1]

I don't really understand this comment

Not to speak for them but reading the entire comment, they seem to be referring to the real reasons for the delays etc.

Your link demonstrates their point (in the "Trains Service Status Messages" data): "Severe delays due to train cancellations."..."Minor delays due to train cancellations."

As a commentor above wrote: "...the "Minor Delays due to Train Cancellations" message. About as informative as "If it's dry outside it hasn't rained.""

Do you have a link for TfL's frank and honest acknowledgment of the issues, the plan, and the progress of the plan?

 

[GFE]

One would perhaps expect such acknowledgement of issues and planned actions in the reports to the operational panel or Board - can't recall anything.
Also sometimes info released via Evening standard or targeted social media - nothing noted on forums.

 

[xtmw]

As quoted in a previous post of mine...

There are a few TSRs on the network which is causing some late running. Stratford and Woodford come to mind which easily adds an extra 3-5 mins to run time. I believe there is a TSR (albeit not a code 3 one so shouldn't affect schedule that much) in the Epping area due to reports of a rough ride however will have to double check that.
Unfortunately a lack of Ok stock, lack of T/Ops and various TSRs are creating some lumpy intervals on the line

However I do understand this is just the Central Line which doesn't answer your question. WTT71 has the ambitious aim of attempting to get 72 trains on the line... There are cancellations for the usual reasons, lack of available stock etc.

The Central Line is closed for Leyton upgrade works this weekend, and there's already been an incident at Liverpool St and Epping with defective trains ...
(edited to include Epping defect)

 

[Daniel]

The Jubilee line, at stations such as Waterloo it does become in my opinion dangerous. Really they should bring in a temporary timetable instead of allowing trains to bunch with large gaps in between.

As the following is public information from TfL's website, in response to FOI requests:

Due to long term train cancellations, temporary service arrangements will continue to apply to Working Timetable No. 18, until further notice. 5 trains remain withdrawn from the weekday timetable of Working Timetable No. 18. This is comprised of 2 trains which operate in the peak service only and 3 trains which operate throughout the traffic day. Where possible. wide intervals caused by the cancellation of train paths have been improved. However, some wider than usual intervals will remain in certain parts of the timetable due to pathing constraints. Intervals are to be regulated and services adjusted where necessary. In connection with the introduction of Circle and Hammersmith & City Line Working Timetable No. 39 and Metropolitan Line Working Timetable No. 346, some revisions have been made to starting and stabling times at Neasden Depot. On Mondays to Fridays a ‘run as required’ train path has been added for media filming purposes. This train stables at Charing Cross (disused) platform 3 between the morning and evening peaks. In consequence of the re-allocation of Crew Running numbers, Signalling Trip numbers and Routeing information, the whole Timetable is published in this notice.

All week
Run and dwell times have been updated to better reflect actual performance.

Monday to Fridays
The wider intervals that existed in Timetable Notice No. 1/25 are removed and an even-interval service is re-introduced. In the peaks, services between West Hampstead and Stratford will be increased from 26tph to 27 tph, while using the same number of trains. In the evening off-peak, services between Wembley Park and Stratford are reduced from 22tph to 21tph and between Stanmore and Wembley Park are reduced from 16tph to 15tph, in order to provide more trains for maintenance.

Saturdays and Sundays
Stepping back at Stratford is increased from 2-train to 4-train stepping back. All weekend service frequencies remain unchanged

(my bolding)

So, to summarise - TTN 1/25 withdrew 5 trains from the service level of WTT18, and WTT19 further reduced the amount of trains in service by 2 - (though it did even out some of the gaps where the trains removed in TTN 1/25 were missing).

Despite all of that, the line still experiences delays from train cancellations, as you state, but I highlight that they have indeed implemented temporary timetables.

It is worth of note that neither TTN 1/25 nor WTT19 reduced the trains in service at a weekend, when it seems that train cancellations are most common...

 

[Brooke]

Not to speak for them but reading the entire comment, they seem to be referring to the real reasons for the delays etc.

Your link demonstrates their point (in the "Trains Service Status Messages" data): "Severe delays due to train cancellations."..."Minor delays due to train cancellations."

As a commentor above wrote: "...the "Minor Delays due to Train Cancellations" message. About as informative as "If it's dry outside it hasn't rained.""

Do you have a link for TfL's frank and honest acknowledgment of the issues, the plan, and the progress of the plan?

Exactly this. For example on the Central on Friday 18/9 there were “Severe Days Due to Train Cancellations” for a long period, which tells consumers nothing useful about the reasons why.

My wife is regularly affected by it and calls it a “dog ate my homework” reason.

Since @Mawkie was kind enough to link the performance data, I glanced at the “Services Operated” data for the Central.

2018-19, 2019-20 and 2020-21 all averaged 92% or higher, while nothing since has been above 90%. The most recent published data is 84% in 2026-27 period 6, which is the 10th worst period of 105 with data available. The period 5 prior was the 21st worst period.

Turning to the status messages, “train cancellations” as a reason has been used in 27% of Central Line messages since 2022 and in 42% of messages so far this year.

So it seems peoples’ perception of declining long-term performance is backed up by the data; that the recent period has been exceptionally poor; and in my personal opinion “train cancellations” as a reason for much of it in the last couple of weeks is opaque.

(Edited for clarity)

 

[penfold22]

Certainly on the Pic, there is an overnight Teams call to establish the level of service that can be achieved the following day based upon various factors, but including Train Operator availability. Presumably that's the same across all lines?

What I'm hinting at is that there is a huge recognition of the risks around congestion on stations and platforms and there is a multi-faceted approach to proactively dealing with it. Of course, identified issues can only be rectified within the confines of budgetary constraints.

So I'm saying it's disingenuous to suggest that TfL are waiting for a crushing incident before they "take notice". They have noticed, they do notice, they continually notice, and they already do a massive amount of work before a train even leaves a depot, and that work continues across the day and beyond. And when I say beyond, the train cancellations attributed to Operator Not Available (ONA) are recorded and viewable by managers across the network who dicuss the impacts of that on a daily basis.

I think I have served far too many years and seen just too many changes from what we were, to what we are to comment much more than I have without seriously jeopardising my retirement, should someone who could do so views this forum - which I have no doubt they, or someone they know, or AI will do.

I will say is that I know such Teams calls exist, and certainly within the Line Controllers at my location we choose not to get involved (again I think involvement could see some of those who have similar service lengths to mine being put at risk for our long term plans if we were involved and allowed to speak honestly.)

I do credit you with saying what you have said, including all of the ONA attributions etc that will, I am certain, make a big difference in the long run (so much so that, on my line at least, are no longer attributed to 1 person that can answer but are "recorded" for the overall statistic view.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 20:01 ==

My wife is regularly affected by it and calls it a “dog ate my homework” reason.

I think this is brilliant and should maybe considered as an alternative excuse.
If I had the power to influence such things (and unfortunately the older you get the more cynical you are perceived so less you are listened to on this sort of thing) I would get them to use it.

 

[Route115?]

a number of weekend drivers are currently going through training which should hopefully start to alleviate some of the issues over the next few months as they start to pass out.

I've not come across this before. Is a cohort of operators who will only (or mostly) work at weekends being recruited?

There was a temporary 21 train per hour timetable on the Central Line that worked quite well. Could this be brought back? (I understand that additional peak trains could be operated with it - but hardly ever were.)

 

[henryb]

Does anyone know what the issue is with the Victoria line in particular? This week the messages have been a shortage of trains, train cancellations due to lack of staff, and track fault at Brixton multiple times rid week (due to be resolved?)

Yesterday the service was part suspended because of an obstruction on the track between Victoria and Brixton, how did they turn the trains also?

 

[Mawkie]

Does anyone know what the issue is with the Victoria line in particular?

Broken rail, will possibly be ongoing for a few days unfortunately.

 

[Kilopylae]

I will say is that I know such Teams calls exist, and certainly within the Line Controllers at my location we choose not to get involved (again I think involvement could see some of those who have similar service lengths to mine being put at risk for our long term plans if we were involved and allowed to speak honestly.)

Not a good sign.

 

[BrianW]

Every station has a CCEP (Congestion Control and Emergency Plan) - specific to each individual station. This plan identifies high risk points around stations that are prone to overcrowding; that could be platforms, cross passages, escalators, etc. The plans are somewhat dynamic and can even account for passenger flows during the morning and evening peak periods, or for example during football fixtures, or concerts. They take into account the needs of people with disabilities, such as visually impaired, hearing impaired, and wheelchair users. They are reviewed annually, and after major changes to station infrastructure, such as building works or lifts.

CCEPs are implemented by Customer Service Supervisors (or Managers) based on the CCEP and a dynamic risk assessment - these CSSs and CSMs often have decades of experience in dealing with crowd control measures on their stations. Likewise, and with similar levels of experience, Customer Service Assistants will understand what measures need to be taken when crowd control is implemented - this can be closing a number of gatelines (making them exit only), closing some entrances to the station entirely, making the station 'exit only' for a duration of time, changing the route direction indicators around the station to influence passenger flows and a whole host of other measures.

All of this is supported with close communication with the line controllers, who also have vast operational knowledge, to determine actual risk - as an example, I have certainly run empty trains from Northfields depot to first pick up at Hyde Park Corner during Winter Wonderland. This scoops up hundreds of people in one go and suddenly there is no congestion problem.

During day-to-day working Trackernet allows staff to see how many trains are coming along the pipe and how far away they are. At the same time, the station CCTV allows Supervisors to see every platform, passageway, and gateline - every nook and cranny in fact. All of the above feeds into the decision making process done by Supervisors.

It's rather amusing to hear from observers who assume that London Underground haven't noticed some of their stations are busy and that they haven't thought about and made a plan.

Edited for typo

Good to see this and other authoritative and informative reposes to what to an interested (and exasperated?) enquirer are reasonable 'questions'. The Forum is great for this- I learn a lot.