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Connectivity Challenges with Digital Railcard

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bcarmicle

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Even if it is unconventional, that is irrelevant. The forum's ticket sales website is also unconventional, and I hope you would agree that it would be inappropriate to tell forum members that they shouldn't use it because if it goes wrong, it's their fault.
 
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talldave

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Proper offline support is an accreditation requirement for Digital Railcard retailers, and it's something we made damn sure we got right when we implemented railcards at Raileasy, because it's so important to be able to show a Railcard to a member of on-train staff and there's no guarantee whatsoever of adequate mobile signal on the UK rail network. The data required to display the card gets persisted into a local, offline SQLite database.

TrainPal/CTrip/Trip.com would've been subject to the same requirements as everyone else, in theory. If you can prove it doesn't work satisfactorily offline, I would complain to the retailer in the first instance.

I do disagree slightly with the posters here suggesting that it's OP's fault for choosing an unconventional retailer. The entire point of the accreditation process is to ensure passengers are not disadvantaged based on who they buy from when it comes to the basics.
How is compliance tested, in order to achieve accreditation?
 

Adam Williams

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How is compliance tested, in order to achieve accreditation?
Two ways:

A) Retailer uploads evidence of their compliance with specific accreditation tests, e.g. a statement explaining the way in which data is persisted and retrieved.

B) RDG get a copy of the staging apps for each platform and credentials, and are able to do their own checks on their own test devices.
 

Haywain

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B) RDG get a copy of the staging apps for each platform and credentials, and are able to do their own checks on their own test devices.
I don't know if things have improved recently, but that is subject to having time and staff available to carry out testing to that level.
 

mad_rich

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Proper offline support is an accreditation requirement for Digital Railcard retailers, and it's something we made damn sure we got right when we implemented railcards at Raileasy, because it's so important to be able to show a Railcard to a member of on-train staff and there's no guarantee whatsoever of adequate mobile signal on the UK rail network. The data required to display the card gets persisted into a local, offline SQLite database.

TrainPal/CTrip/Trip.com would've been subject to the same requirements as everyone else, in theory. If you can prove it doesn't work satisfactorily offline, I would complain to the retailer in the first instance.
Is there any technical or regulatory reason why a railcard can’t be delivered in Apple Wallet (or equivalent).

This is robust offline, doesn’t ever log the user out, doesn’t suffer from app offloading that SussexSeagull experienced. And dare I say is probably more stable than an app - less likely to be broken by software updates (to app, or to OS) or unexpected events/ user behaviour.
 

Watershed

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Is there any technical or regulatory reason why a railcard can’t be delivered in Apple Wallet (or equivalent).

This is robust offline, doesn’t ever log the user out, doesn’t suffer from app offloading that SussexSeagull experienced. And dare I say is probably more stable than an app - less likely to be broken by software updates (to app, or to OS) or unexpected events/ user behaviour.
It's much the same as how ScotRail cling onto m-tickets - they have a fear that people will share the Railcard. The fundamental point that this misses is that a Digital Railcard has a photo of the holder; therefore, any sharing is just as trivial to detect as (say) someone sharing their mate's season ticket. The photocard simply wouldn't match.
 

talldave

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Two ways:

A) Retailer uploads evidence of their compliance with specific accreditation tests, e.g. a statement explaining the way in which data is persisted and retrieved.

B) RDG get a copy of the staging apps for each platform and credentials, and are able to do their own checks on their own test devices.
Hmmm, so dead easy to get an app accredited that doesn't work :(? Because (A) self declaration of compliance & (B) I bet they test nothing, ie: if they did, this thread wouldn't exist.

Sadly, rubbish test regimes damage the credibility of an industry.
 

kkong

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The fundamental point that this misses is that a Digital Railcard has a photo of the holder; therefore, any sharing is just as trivial to detect as (say) someone sharing their mate's season ticket. The photocard simply wouldn't match.

I recently witnessed a fellow passenger presenting a genuine digital Two Together railcard which only had one photo on it.

The ticket inspector was sceptical as to how such a railcard could have been issued.
 

island

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Is there any technical or regulatory reason why a railcard can’t be delivered in Apple Wallet (or equivalent).

This is robust offline, doesn’t ever log the user out, doesn’t suffer from app offloading that SussexSeagull experienced. And dare I say is probably more stable than an app - less likely to be broken by software updates (to app, or to OS) or unexpected events/ user behaviour.
I'm prepared to be corrected on this but my understanding is Apple Wallet doesn't support a photograph of the holder, only text components, logos, and a barcode.
 

Adam Williams

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It's much the same as how ScotRail cling onto m-tickets - they have a fear that people will share the Railcard. The fundamental point that this misses is that a Digital Railcard has a photo of the holder; therefore, any sharing is just as trivial to detect as (say) someone sharing their mate's season ticket. The photocard simply wouldn't match.
The barrier for entry for putting your own pass in Google Wallet is much, much lower than decompiling e.g. Trainline and then building your own fraudulent app which visually follows the spec. For Apple Wallet there's basically no barrier, you just need to be able to ZIP up your own pkpass file and re-sign the data with your own key.

The reality is that digital railcards are very, very infrequently scanned today and there's also nothing that ties the barcode and the photo together. As much as I don't think client-side security is really security, I can see why we currently have the status quo that we do.

Railcards also a) need to be able to be hotlisted and b) are required to display a hologram that cannot be implemented with Apple or Google Wallet.

I'm prepared to be corrected on this but my understanding is Apple Wallet doesn't support a photograph of the holder, only text components, logos, and a barcode.
This is also my understanding.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I'm prepared to be corrected on this but my understanding is Apple Wallet doesn't support a photograph of the holder, only text components, logos, and a barcode.

You can bodge it to do most things, e.g. it doesn't support traditional barcodes, but the store card apps do them as images.

The main issue is that it can't withdraw a pass if it ceases to be valid. This would be fine if Railcards were validated by way of barcode scans as e-tickets are, but the Railcard tech is more like m-tickets. The issue would be that people would just forward the PKPASS files to their mates.

Google Wallet, being newer, is much more fully featured, though I don't know if that extends to solving this.
 

mad_rich

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I'm prepared to be corrected on this but my understanding is Apple Wallet doesn't support a photograph of the holder, only text components, logos, and a barcode.
I was thinking that too. I have a ticket for the London Transport Museum of all things in my Wallet, which comes with a nice photo of the museum. It does look a bit shoehorned in though.
 

Adam Williams

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The main issue is that it can't withdraw a pass if it ceases to be valid. This would be fine if Railcards were validated by way of barcode scans as e-tickets are, but the Railcard tech is more like m-tickets. The issue would be that people would just forward the PKPASS files to their mates.
It's actually possible to provide a remote web service that a pass receives updates against but obviously you're at the mercy of the Wallet implementation as to when it decides to do this, and what it does if it's been offline for too long. You've also got the problem that the pkpass files are signed, not encrypted, so again - you can pull the data out, make your own pkpass file (perhaps with an extended validity!) and just sign it yourself without the automatic update configuration.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's actually possible to provide a remote web service that a pass receives updates against but obviously you're at the mercy of the Wallet implementation as to when it decides to do this, and what it does if it's been offline for too long. You've also got the problem that the pkpass files are signed, not encrypted, so again - you can pull the data out, make your own pkpass file (perhaps with an extended validity!) and just sign it yourself without the automatic update configuration.

True. The only one I have that does that is the Subway Subcard, and the number of points is usually wrong, so it's rather ineffective.
 

mad_rich

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True. The only one I have that does that is the Subway Subcard, and the number of points is usually wrong, so it's rather ineffective.
Ah, this possibly explains why my Subway balance is always wrong. Although, to be fair, I don't need the Wallet to tell me my balance.

Same for a Sainsbury's gift card, where the balance is only updated if I delete the card and add it to Wallet again.
 

800Travel

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I was thinking that too. I have a ticket for the London Transport Museum of all things in my Wallet, which comes with a nice photo of the museum. It does look a bit shoehorned in though.
I have a greggs card from when they used to allow that to be added to Apple wallet. It has a picture of a bacon sandwich, so theoretically pictures can be added.
 

KittyBoat76

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I have a question, not sure if this should start my own thread as it is related (feel free to separate this into a new thread) I have had many troubles with displaying my railcard before, I have also been in trouble with the railway before and have learnt my lesson the hard way. That said, I am now definitely trying to stay out of any trouble in the future. When my railcard won’t load for whatever reason, I get so stressed and scared that I’m going to get in trouble again that when I renew it in May this year, I really need a physical one for peace of mind for when technology doesn’t work, my phone could die etc. I’ll be eligible for a 26-30 railcard this time, I currently have a 16-25 one. However, on the railcard website it ONLY gives me the option to buy a digital railcard. Is there any way around this, as personally it’s really not worth the stress for me trying to have it digitally?
 

Adam Williams

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I have a question, not sure if this should start my own thread as it is related (feel free to separate this into a new thread) I have had many troubles with displaying my railcard before, I have also been in trouble with the railway before and have learnt my lesson the hard way. That said, I am now definitely trying to stay out of any trouble in the future. When my railcard won’t load for whatever reason, I get so stressed and scared that I’m going to get in trouble again that when I renew it in May this year, I really need a physical one for peace of mind for when technology doesn’t work, my phone could die etc. I’ll be eligible for a 26-30 railcard this time, I currently have a 16-25 one. However, on the railcard website it ONLY gives me the option to buy a digital railcard. Is there any way around this, as personally it’s really not worth the stress for me trying to have it digitally?
No, it's only sold digitally.

My suggestion would be: buy from a retailer you trust (ask them questions about how the app works, if you like), get yourself a lithium ion battery pack of some sort (Anker sell some good portable chargers) in case the phone dies and there's no power sockets on the train.
 

James H

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Same for a Sainsbury's gift card, where the balance is only updated if I delete the card and add it to Wallet again.
Press the i button on the gift card then toggle automatic updates off and on to force an update
 

KittyBoat76

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No, it's only sold digitally.

My suggestion would be: buy from a retailer you trust (ask them questions about how the app works, if you like), get yourself a lithium ion battery pack of some sort (Anker sell some good portable chargers) in case the phone dies and there's no power sockets on the train.
That’s a shame, but thank you for your reply! I just get really nervous every time I travel now that I could be breaking some law without even realising it. I guess my best bet is to buy from the railcard website, download it as it says can be accessed offline for 72 hours and then ensure it’s downloaded before I travel, and then ensure my phone is charged.

I wish we could go back to the days where we didn’t rely on technology for everything! Lol
 

Watershed

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The barrier for entry for putting your own pass in Google Wallet is much, much lower than decompiling e.g. Trainline and then building your own fraudulent app which visually follows the spec. For Apple Wallet there's basically no barrier, you just need to be able to ZIP up your own pkpass file and re-sign the data with your own key.

The reality is that digital railcards are very, very infrequently scanned today and there's also nothing that ties the barcode and the photo together. As much as I don't think client-side security is really security, I can see why we currently have the status quo that we do.

Railcards also a) need to be able to be hotlisted and b) are required to display a hologram that cannot be implemented with Apple or Google Wallet.


This is also my understanding.
The problem here is essentially that Railcards are handled differently to e-tickets. But I see no justifiable reason why this should be the case. Scanning Railcard barcodes should be as routine as scanning e-ticket if it's considered that there is a genuine risk of sharing that can't be mitigated through alternative measures.

The photo of the Railcard holder could be held locally on inspectors' devices to address concerns about the barcode and photo not being tied together. Yes, that would take up a fair amount of space even if a relatively low resolution image were used, but none of this is stuff that is technologically impossible given how cheap digital storage is nowadays.

By way of a back-of-the-fag-packet calculation, there are perhaps (at most) 10 million Railcards in circulation at any one time. You could compress the holder's image to say 100 kB. 10 million × 100 kB = 1TB. A 1TB SD card costs about £100, in other words not a disproportionate amount when compared to the cost of a scanning device.

In a way it reminds me of the concerns about allowing Railcards to be applied to contactless. They're all perfectly technologically capable of being addressed, it's just that the rail industry prefers the route that's most convenient for itself rather than for passengers.
 

island

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The photo of the Railcard holder could be held locally on inspectors' devices to address concerns about the barcode and photo not being tied together. Yes, that would take up a fair amount of space even if a relatively low resolution image were used, but none of this is stuff that is technologically impossible given how cheap digital storage is nowadays.

By way of a back-of-the-fag-packet calculation, there are perhaps (at most) 10 million Railcards in circulation at any one time. You could compress the holder's image to say 100 kB. 10 million × 100 kB = 1TB. A 1TB SD card costs about £100, in other words not a disproportionate amount when compared to the cost of a scanning device.
This is wildly impracticable, for at least the following reasons:
  • Time (and data) consumption to download and update the images
  • Standard issue inspection devices don't have an SD card slot
  • Data security issues in the case of lost devices or memory cards
  • Further GDPR issues if people claimed they hadn't consented to the processing of their data this way/it would be incompatible with the reasons they were given for data collection
  • ICO permission would be required (per article 36 of UK-GDPR) and there is no certainty this would be granted
  • Semiconductor shortage meaning there probably aren't even that many SD cards in existence in the UK
  • New or recently issued cards wouldn't be on the system
 

Watershed

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This is wildly impracticable, for at least the following reasons:
I wasn't suggesting that it would necessarily be done in exactly this way. Indeed it was more just a thought experiment to demonstrate that there are ways and means the current (perceived) blockers could be worked around.

  • Time (and data) consumption to download and update the images
Initial download would only be required once upon setup. Updating would require much smaller amounts of data to be downloaded; if we go by my previous assumption of 10m Railcards in circulation and 100 kB per Railcard, it would be an average 2.7GB per night. Hardly taxing given the capabilities of modern internet connections.

  • Standard issue inspection devices don't have an SD card slot
I wasn't actually suggesting that the data would necessarily be stored on an SD card. It was just a demonstration that the required amount of storage isn't unreasonably expensive. Mobile phones are now routinely available with 1TB of storage or even more.

  • Data security issues in the case of lost devices or memory cards
As above, it wouldn't necessarily be memory cards used. But these kinds of data security issues are far from insurmountable; you would expect such devices (and their storage) to be suitably encrypted in any event. Plenty of other bits of customer data will be floating about on devices issued to rail staff.

  • Further GDPR issues if people claimed they hadn't consented to the processing of their data this way/it would be incompatible with the reasons they were given for data collection
Clearly you wouldn't apply it retrospectively. It would be an option people could opt into if they wanted to be able to have an e-ticket-esque Railcard.

  • ICO permission would be required (per article 36 of UK-GDPR) and there is no certainty this would be granted
It's not at all clear why you are suggesting that a Data Protection Impact Assessment (DPIA) would lead to the conclusion that this is a "high risk activity". Do you have any examples of Article 36 ICO permission being denied?

  • Semiconductor shortage meaning there probably aren't even that many SD cards in existence in the UK
We're not exactly talking about a huge number of devices, are we? Again, perhaps a few tens of thousands at the absolute most. Millions of smartphones with not dissimilar amounts of storage are sold each year in the UK I'm therefore unconvinced that there is a sufficiently serious shortage that this would be infeasible.

  • New or recently issued cards wouldn't be on the system
Ah, this old chestnut again! At most it would be one day's worth of cards that wouldn't be on the scanning device. That's a risk I think the railway can afford to take.

At the end of the day, whilst I am sure the reasons you've given are well intentioned, they strike me as the kind of non-excuses that the industry would come up to justify its current approach - rather than being true obstacles.
 

island

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At the end of the day, whilst I am sure the reasons you've given are well intentioned, they strike me as the kind of non-excuses that the industry would come up to justify its current approach - rather than being true obstacles.
I think calling them "non-excuses" is cynical and unreasonable. These are massive practical challenges, costs, and risks for the railway to deal with, for the very low payoff of allowing Railcard holders, who already have multiple ways to store and display their Railcards, a different way of low to no additional convenience.
Initial download would only be required once upon setup. Updating would require much smaller amounts of data to be downloaded; if we go by my previous assumption of 10m Railcards in circulation and 100 kB per Railcard, it would be an average 2.7GB per night. Hardly taxing given the capabilities of modern internet connections.
2.7GB per device per night is an enormous amount of data, it is over 80GB a month. Adopting the lower bound of your assumption taking 10,000 devices in circulation and usage per day, that is pushing a million GB. Might not be "taxing" but it definitely won't be cheap.
I wasn't actually suggesting that the data would necessarily be stored on an SD card. It was just a demonstration that the required amount of storage isn't unreasonably expensive. Mobile phones are now routinely available with 1TB of storage or even more.
Not many, though, and (1) this heightened level of storage carries additional cost, and (2) you need to use some of that storage for other things too.
As above, it wouldn't necessarily be memory cards used. But these kinds of data security issues are far from insurmountable; you would expect such devices (and their storage) to be suitably encrypted in any event. Plenty of other bits of customer data will be floating about on devices issued to rail staff.
If it's encrypted then the decryption key needs to be somewhere. If it's known by rail staff, then it just takes one bent staff member to leak it. It can't be online because there isn't consistent coverage on trains. And if it's stored on the device it's as good as useless if the device is lost.
Clearly you wouldn't apply it retrospectively. It would be an option people could opt into if they wanted to be able to have an e-ticket-esque Railcard.
To rely on consent as the basis for processing data you'd need to allow people to withdraw consent freely and at any time, which has its own practical challenges. Presumably you'd want to revoke the Wallet pass belonging to the Railcard, which as mentioned upthread, you can't.
It's not at all clear why you are suggesting that a Data Protection Impact Assessment (DPIA) would lead to the conclusion that this is a "high risk activity". Do you have any examples of Article 36 ICO permission being denied?
With respect, if you are trying to tell me that storing 10 million photos of individuals on over 10,000 mobile devices strewn across the country is not a "high risk activity", I don't think we can have a constructive conversation.
We're not exactly talking about a huge number of devices, are we? Again, perhaps a few tens of thousands at the absolute most. Millions of smartphones with not dissimilar amounts of storage are sold each year in the UK
No, they aren't. The average smartphone sold has 128/256GB storage, an eighth/quarter of the amount you propose is needed.
I'm therefore unconvinced that there is a sufficiently serious shortage that this would be infeasible.
I'm not.
Ah, this old chestnut again! At most it would be one day's worth of cards that wouldn't be on the scanning device. That's a risk I think the railway can afford to take.
All well and good until someone buys a Railcard an hour before travel and gets written up for prosecution when it scans and the inspector gets an error.

So no, not "non-excuses" at all, serious and material barriers to taking an idea forward that has at best marginal benefits.
 

Bletchleyite

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Like with many things there'll probably be blanket mobile coverage on the whole network within 10-20 years. Then it (and indeed all tickets) can be verified fully online. We just need a bodge like this (and like the even worse s-ticket, which is the king of ticketing bodges*) in the meantime.

* You download a 3 hour coupon and have to download another when it expires. Not a single journey coupon or a one day one as might make sense, a 3 hour one. It's bizarre. You can't even put a coupon in Apple Wallet.
 

sor

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I'm not as hysterical about the data retention issues as others are (I'd hope that railway-supplied devices are use encryption and are attached to one of the various mobile device management platforms - ie if it goes walkies it can be found/erased). But I'm not sure why the photo is so vital anyway - if the railway's technology fails to deliver the photo at time of scanning, then it should give the benefit of the doubt. I know this doesn't fit with the modern railway's desire to push more responsibility to the passenger, and it is especially egregious in the case of the 26-30 which has no physical equivalent anyway, but there we are.

Significant rules rethink needed for so called "digital" railcards, instead of trying to apply the existing rules with even more onerous conditions like having a powered on phone at all times, which may not always be possible. Not that this always works - I used the official app for my 26-30 and my railcard disappeared right when an RPI wanted to see it. They didn't seem too fussed, but that was more luck than anything else.
 

rs101

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My last 3 Network Railcard renewals were all done on the day of travel (in one case, while eating a bacon roll in the station cafe, after having bought my ticket!), so I'd have failed ticket checks each time, if it required the data on each device. Not that the railcard has been checked for about 5 years.

It's completely impractical anyway, expecting British rail operators to implement that sort of technology consistently, when some don't even accept e-tickets yet.

Other countries don't seem to require photos for their discounted travel cards - we didn't need them for the 50% discount card for Switzerland, for example. Just bought them online, added to the app and used for discounted travel across the entire network with zero issues.
 
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