Connection missed can I claim?

[GuitarWizard]

Hi,

I just completed a journey from Watford Junction to Manchester Piccadilly.

1. Watford > Milton Keynes (London Midlands)
2. Milton Keynes > Manchester (Virgin Trains)

The London Midlands train was 20mins late so I missed my connection and had to wait another hour so was over 1hr late to my destination. Do I qualify for a refund if so who because I used two providers, there is no direct train on Sundays.

Thanks.

 

[bb21]

Which trains were you booked on and which ones did you use?

 

[GuitarWizard]

Which trains were you booked on and which ones did you use?

I was booked on
Watford Junction -> Milton Keynes @ 13:06 which I got but 20 mins late
Milton Keynes to Manchester Piccadilly booked for @ 13:50 but missed so go the 14:50

 

[yorkie]

This was a valid connection.

If you were at Waford Jn in time for the 1306, you should have got the late running 1250 connecting service, which arrived at MKC 1344, giving plenty of time to change platforms.

As it happened, you appear to have let that train go (why?) and arrived at MKC 1348, which would still be possible but would be tight for someone with a lot of luggage and/or mobility issues etc.

So anyone processing this claim may wonder why you let this train go and waited for the delayed 1306 connecting service.

Did you see the advice of staff? were you advised to let the earlier connecting train go or did you make that decision yourself?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do I qualify for a refund if so who because I used two providers,

If you were (incorrectly, in my opinion) advised to let the earlier connecting train go, then it's a valid claim for compensation (not a refund) to the value of 50% of the cost of the single journey (or 25% of the cost of a return journey) and the claim goes to LM as it was LM who were late.

Your booked arrival time was 1529 and your actual arrival time was 1628.

Take a photo of your ticket(s) and attach them to the online form at the bottom of this page:
http://www.londonmidland.com/your-journey/more/delay-repay/
Make sure you explain why you did not get the earlier connecting train, otherwise the claim may be rejected, as it was possible to make the connection.

 

[Class377]

One would imagine the OP was on an advance ticket, given the length of journey and the fact they were booked on to the trains.

As such, their ticket would not be valid for the 12:50 and would only be allowed on the 13:06.

FGW have recently said on Facebook that they would expect their delay repay team to show some common sense and still compensate for a 59 minute delay so it is worth appealing to London Midland on the same basis.

As an aside, it does seem absurd that advance ticket restrictions do not allow the OP to catch an earlier train, as it seems like it would be less hassle than having to sort out an inevitable delay repay claim just for the sake of quotas!

 

[Merseysider]

One would imagine the OP was on an advance ticket, given the length of journey and the fact they were booked on to the trains.

As such, their ticket would not be valid for the 12:50 and would only be allowed on the 13:06.

FGW have recently said on Facebook that they would expect their delay repay team to show some common sense and still compensate for a 59 minute delay so it is worth appealing to London Midland on the same basis.

As an aside, it does seem absurd that advance ticket restrictions do not allow the OP to catch an earlier train, as it seems like it would be less hassle than having to sort out an inevitable delay repay claim just for the sake of quotas!

In this case, an advance would tie the OP to a specific connecting train so can understand them not wanting to differ from their booked train. My previous experience of '&Connections' tickets led me to believe any reasonable connecting train could be caught, but that is not the case here.

 

[Class377]

Having checked the Advance fares available for WFJ-MAN, I can confirm that all are VT Only or VT&Connections, and no mandatory seat reservation would be given for the LM leg of the journey. Thus in this case, I believe the OP would be free to catch any reasonable connecting service.

However I can also understand being given an itinerary online and not wanting to differ from the specific trains given, "just in case".

Having done this journey myself in the past, I was under the impression that there are NO seat reservations on LM. You get given a train with Coach X and Seat XX but same restrictions apply?

 

[PermitToTravel]

Having checked the Advance fares available for WFJ-MAN, I can confirm that all are VT Only or VT&Connections, and no mandatory seat reservation would be given for the LM leg of the journey. Thus in this case, I believe the OP would be free to catch any reasonable connecting service.

However I can also understand being given an itinerary online and not wanting to differ from the specific trains given, "just in case".

The 13:06 from Watford Junction to Milton Keynes is reservable and so seat reservations can be made on it (for coach */seat ** as Class377 correctly states)

When selling any Advance Purchase itinerary using this train, booking engines will make a reservation for it

 

[bb21]

I think it is best that we wait to hear back from the OP what ticket(s) he held before speculating further.

 

[185143]

One would imagine the OP was on an advance ticket, given the length of journey and the fact they were booked on to the trains.

As such, their ticket would not be valid for the 12:50 and would only be allowed on the 13:06.

FGW have recently said on Facebook that they would expect their delay repay team to show some common sense and still compensate for a 59 minute delay so it is worth appealing to London Midland on the same basis.

As an aside, it does seem absurd that advance ticket restrictions do not allow the OP to catch an earlier train, as it seems like it would be less hassle than having to sort out an inevitable delay repay claim just for the sake of quotas!

NO! I claimed for a half hour delay on the cross city line in September. The reply was Our records show that you were delayed by 29 minutes and the minimum length of delay for compensation is 30 minutes so compensation is not payable on this occasion! However Northern have compensated me for 56 minutes before.

 

[yorkie]

One would imagine the OP was on an advance ticket, given the length of journey and the fact they were booked on to the trains.

As such, their ticket would not be valid for the 12:50 and would only be allowed on the 13:06.

There are no Advance fares from WFJ to MKC, so it is likely that the OP was on a ticket routed Virgin & Connections; these are valid on "appropriate connecting trains".

I would be extremely surprised if any staff at LM attempted to act in a way that increased the companies liabilities in respect of Delay Repay claims, by instructing such passengers they had to board a specific connecting service in the event of delays.

FGW have recently said on Facebook that they would expect their delay repay team to show some common sense and still compensate for a 59 minute delay so it is worth appealing to London Midland on the same basis.

As an aside, it does seem absurd that advance ticket restrictions do not allow the OP to catch an earlier train, as it seems like it would be less hassle than having to sort out an inevitable delay repay claim just for the sake of quotas!

I agree it would be absurd, but that's not my interpretation of the conditions.

In any case, irrespective of the debate over the conditions, when delays occur I'd strongly advise following staff instructions, which are highly unlikely to impose an unnecessary one hour delay on a passenger. For those rare occasions that such an imposition does occur, I'd note some details of the person issuing the instruction and ensure these are included in the Delay Repay claim.

I cannot believe it would be LM policy for their staff to cause an unnecessary delay.

 

[greatkingrat]

In this case it is not obvious whether to take the earlier train or not.

The 1250 (actual 1310) from Watford arrives MKC 1327 (37 min) and makes 4 stops.
The 1306 (actual 1316) from Watford arrives MKC 1336 (30 min) and makes 1 stop.

The 1306 ended up behind the 1250 on the slow lines, however it was possible that had it been put on the fasts it would have actually got to MKC first.

 

[Class377]

There are no Advance fares from WFJ to MKC, so it is likely that the OP was on a ticket routed Virgin & Connections; these are valid on "appropriate connecting trains".

I was under the impression that connections, or "appropriate connecting trains", referred to services between a start/end point and the connection to your "main" train, which was not a reservable service? (For example, if you are changing at Manchester Piccadilly but have an advance to, say, Bolton with a connection, you are meant to use Northern but not TPE as the Northern service would not do reservations but TPE would?) Since the Watford - Milton Keynes service came with a reservation coupon, it would seem to me that it was in fact compulsory.

Of course, the routing says otherwise, and it's this confusion from yet another complexity which I'm sure prompted the OP to believe they should have waited for the 13:06.

 

[yorkie]

In this case it is not obvious whether to take the earlier train or not.....

Indeed, it may not be obvious, which is why I'd always suggest consulting staff, and usually staff would advise on minimising the impact of any delay. As you say, they may not know, but at least you're definitely covered if you follow the instructions given, including if it turns out to be slower than the other options.

I was under the impression that connections, or "appropriate connecting trains", referred to services between a start/end point and the connection to your "main" train, which was not a reservable service? (For example, if you are changing at Manchester Piccadilly but have an advance to, say, Bolton with a connection, you are meant to use Northern but not TPE as the Northern service would not do reservations but TPE would?) Since the Watford - Milton Keynes service came with a reservation coupon, it would seem to me that it was in fact compulsory.

The validity is:

Valid on Virgin Trains (TOC Code: VWC) services (and connecting services where applicable.)

If the train from Watford to Milton Keynes is not a "connecting service", what is it?

Of course, the routing says otherwise, and it's this confusion from yet another complexity which I'm sure prompted the OP to believe they should have waited for the 13:06.

I agree that reservation coupons for connecting services should not contain the word "mandatory".

I recall the old large size tickets used to include the words "suggested service" which was much clearer.

 

[Class377]

If the train from Watford to Milton Keynes is not a "connecting service", what is it?

Indeed - however, the way advances are advertised and the rules conveyed implies that a connecting service will either be a booked train, or ANY unreservable service (are the Milton Keynes/Northampton terminators reservable? If I didn't get a reservation for that leg of the journey I'd probably stick to those to be on the safe side).

Admittedly I always play it over-safe (and have never had a ticket inspected between Watford and Milton Keynes when travelling on an advance anyway, so wouldn't know if the guards would ask for a reservation) but it does seem confusing.

I agree that reservation coupons for connecting services should not contain the word "mandatory".

I recall the old large size tickets used to include the words "suggested service" which was much clearer.

"Suggested service" would clear the matter up entirely, not only would it show the quickest train one could catch after arriving for a connection (if a stopper were to leave before a fast) but it would also remove any doubt in a situation such as this.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There are no Advance fares from WFJ to MKC, so it is likely that the OP was on a ticket routed Virgin & Connections; these are valid on "appropriate connecting trains".

"Appropriate connecting trains" only applies where you don't have a reservation, IIRC. The 1306 train is a Crewe train and so carries reservations. These are "counted place" reservations, so you don't get a seat, but you must still travel on your booked train.

NFM16 is pretty clear on the matter (and I doubt iKB says owt different):

Q25 - Can a passenger with an Advance ticket travel on an earlier connecting train?

A: Yes if it is non-reservable, no if it is reservable.

Trying to find someone at Watford Junction to ask is not easy, and then you still have problems with "the man on the platform told me". Generally London Midland staff are sensible, and will allow "appropriate connections" unless you're on an LM-Only advance. But I don't necessarily blame the OP for not boarding the earlier train.

Scan/send the reservation coupon for the 1306 along with the tickets and I'm sure London Midland will be sensible with the Delay Repay.

 

[Hadders]

This is an unfortunate consequence of LM offering their own Advance fares.

Before LM bought in Advance fares all their trains were unreservable and passengers using LM to make a connection into a reservable Virgin service were free to use any appropriate train. No reservation coupon was issued.

LM now sell Advance fares using a counted place system as a 'dirty fix' for reservaions, thus making a connecting train reservable. A mandatory reservation coupon is now issued for the connection stating 'booked train only'.

I agree that someone with a VWC+connections ticket should be free to take an appropriate connecting service. But equally we can't really have a system where a mandatory reservation with an LM Advance ticket is mandatory, but a mandatory reservations with a VWC+connections Advance ticket is optional.

This is becoming an increasing problem. Just recently we've had someone ask for advice about a connecting train from Tottenham Hale, again the service in question uses counted place reservations. I also seem to remember GTR saying that they are going to introduce Advance tickets on the TSGN franchise. I assume this will mean more counted place reservations, a loss of flexibility on connections into long distance Advance tickets and more complification for passengers.

 

[yorkie]

"Appropriate connecting trains" only applies where you don't have a reservation, IIRC. The 1306 train is a Crewe train and so carries reservations. These are "counted place" reservations, so you don't get a seat, but you must still travel on your booked train.

The validity of the ticket is that it's only valid on the booked Virgin Trains service and appropriate connecting trains.

So if it's not a Virgin Trains service and its not an appropriate connecting train, what is it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is becoming an increasing problem. ...

Indeed. It's a bonkers situation. Not a new one but as you say an increasing one.

But the T&Cs do say that "appropriate connecting trains" are allowed.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The validity of the ticket is that it's only valid on the booked Virgin Trains service and appropriate connecting trains.

It says "booked train only", and the 1306 was the booked train. The NFM16 makes it clear what should happen.

It's a fairly common occurrence- EC+Connections from Leeds northwards will usually book you on a TPE, which means you have to take that train.

I know Northern are sensible about it and will let you take any reasonable train (quite a few of their routes have counted place reservations too), but that's not quite what the rules say.

 

[yorkie]

It says "booked train only", and the 1306 was the booked train. The NFM16 makes it clear what should happen.

If the 1306 WFJ-MKC is "the booked train", what is the train from MKC to MAN?

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=WFJ&dest=MAN&grpd=0438&rte=452&ldn=1&tkt=VDS

Valid on Virgin Trains (TOC Code: VWC) services (and connecting services where applicable.)
...
If the 'Route' also states 'and Connections' travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

It's a fairly common occurrence- EC+Connections from Leeds northwards will usually book you on a TPE, which means you have to take that train.

TPE are happy for you to take any appropriate connecting TPE train on an EC & Connections ticket, I've had this confirmed by TPE guards.

I do not think a passenger should allow connecting TPE services to York go, and insist on waiting for the suggested TPE connecting service, resulting in a Delay Repay claim for TPE.

It's not in the interests of TPE or the passenger for TPE to pay compensation when the passenger could have avoided a delay.

I know Northern are sensible about it and will let you take any reasonable train (quite a few of their routes have counted place reservations too), but that's not quite what the rules say.

The rules allow "appropriate" trains, which is more or less interchangeable with "reasonable", but it boils down to semantics.

The Advance Fares FAQ states passengers may take alternative connecting trains if they are not reservable, though whether this over-rides the T&Cs that state that "appropriate" connecting trains can be caught is dubious.

In any case, any claim that LM trains are reservable is also very dubious, as the following screenshots demonstrate...

 

[dzug2]

The Advance Fares FAQ states passengers may take alternative connecting trains if they are not reservable, though whether this over-rides the T&Cs that state that "appropriate" connecting trains can be caught is dubious.

In any case, any claim that LM trains are reservable is also very dubious, as the following screenshots demonstrate...

But that's not an advance ticket

 

[maniacmartin]

If you have a mandatory reservation, whether for a specific seat or a counted place (* ***) then in my opinion, that is the only appropriate connecting service, unless staff give permission to travel on another train

 

[yorkie]

But that's not an advance ticket

An Advance ticket won't give you a seat reservation on those trains.

You'll get a coupon if the train is part of the 'counted place' system, but if the ticket is "& connections" I don't think that changes the fact that the T&Cs state that you may take "appropriate connecting services".

 

[DelayRepay]

An Advance ticket won't give you a seat reservation on those trains.

You'll get a coupon if the train is part of the 'counted place' system, but if the ticket is "& connections" I don't think that changes the fact that the T&Cs state that you may take "appropriate connecting services".

I can see where you are coming from, but I can also see why someone holding a ticket marked "booked train only" and a reservation showing the time of a specific train would be reluctant to catch a different train.

 

[island]

An Advance ticket won't give you a seat reservation on those trains.

You'll get a coupon if the train is part of the 'counted place' system, but if the ticket is "& connections" I don't think that changes the fact that the T&Cs state that you may take "appropriate connecting services".

You're cherry-picking the rules that suit. Valid on booked trains only is also a rule.

 

[yorkie]

I can see where you are coming from, but I can also see why someone holding a ticket marked "booked train only" and a reservation showing the time of a specific train would be reluctant to catch a different train.

Agreed, it's very confusing because the T&Cs say one thing, the internal rail industry documents another, and the coupons you actually get say something else too.

But this sort of confusion is typical of the rail industry, because there is no effective Regulator, and no proper ombudsman, so the TOCs do what they want (with some apparent regulation functions carried out by ATOC) sometimes without any thought about the consequences on other TOCs products.

However when delays occur I would always advise seeking the advice of staff, and if staff advised that a clearly appropriate connecting train could not be used and therefore incurred an unnecessary liability, I'd be interested to hear about it, and no doubt the TOC management would too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You're cherry-picking the rules that suit. Valid on booked trains only is also a rule.

But it could be argued that if you pick that rule over the T&Cs, that's also cherry-picking?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Let's step back a moment and consider why is that the 1306 now issues a "Coach * Seat **" coupon for a Watford Jn to Manchester journey.

Did London Midland do this because they want Watford Jn to Manchester passengers, or indeed any passenger who is simply travelling Watford Jn to Milton Keynes Central, to be tied to a specific train?

No.

It's because they sell their own Advance fares for journeys such as Watford to Crewe etc, for which they are not the "connecting" TOC.

The issuing of a coupon between Watford Jn and MKC is an unfortunate by-product of the fact they now issue their own Advance fares, and the inability of the ticket issuing systems used by the rail industry to differentiate the "connecting" service.

I don't think that unfortunate, and almost certainly unplanned, by-product the introduction of LM's own fares is deliberate nor affects the material terms & conditions of the ticket, which were never in any doubt until LM changed to use the 'counted place' system.

 

[Hadders]

Let's step back a moment and consider why is that the 1306 now issues a "Coach * Seat **" coupon for a Watford Jn to Manchester journey.

Did London Midland do this because they want Watford Jn to Manchester passengers, or indeed any passenger who is simply travelling Watford Jn to Milton Keynes Central, to be tied to a specific train?

No.

It's because they sell their own Advance fares for journeys such as Watford to Crewe etc, for which they are not the "connecting" TOC.

The issuing of a coupon between Watford Jn and MKC is an unfortunate by-product of the fact they now issue their own Advance fares, and the inability of the ticket issuing systems used by the rail industry to differentiate the "connecting" service.

I don't think that unfortunate, and almost certainly unplanned, by-product the introduction of LM's own fares is deliberate nor affects the material terms & conditions of the ticket, which were never in any doubt until LM changed to use the 'counted place' system.

This is exactly the point and the issue is now on the increase as TOC's all jump on the bandwagon to offer their own advance tickets.

From memory we now have counted place reservations on:
London Midland
Greater Anglia
South West Trains
Southern
Arriva Trains Wales
Northern

and TSGN potentially bringing them in too at some point on the future.

There really needs to be some clarification from the industry on this.

 

[CyrusWuff]

This is exactly the point and the issue is now on the increase as TOC's all jump on the bandwagon to offer their own advance tickets.

From memory we now have counted place reservations on:
London Midland
Greater Anglia
South West Trains
Southern
Arriva Trains Wales
Northern

Chiltern and FGW both offer counted place reservations as well (in FGW's case on "Turbo" routes where Advance tickets are available). Chiltern also offer conventional "allocated seat" reservations where Business Zone tickets/upgrades are purchased in advance.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The rules allow "appropriate" trains, which is more or less interchangeable with "reasonable", but it boils down to semantics.

You're cherry-picking the bit that you like. The full quote is appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

If you are given an Advance ticket over two legs, and both trains carry reservations (it matters not whether you get a seat or whether it is counted place), then it is clear you must travel on your booked train.

You couldn't get an EC & Connections ticket from Leeds to Inverness and decide to take any Scotrail train from Edinburgh that takes your fancy. This situation is no different.

I am aware that East Coast officially allow passengers to take any train from Stevenage to London as part of a longer journey, and that Northern unofficially allow passengers to take any train from Bradford to Leeds or Hexham to Newcastle as part of a longer journey.

In the OP's case I'm sure that either platform staff or the guard would have been sensible and let the OP take an earlier train to avoid a delay.

There really needs to be some clarification from the industry on this.

I don't think booked train only could be much clearer.

We might think it unreasonable or daft to tie someone to a specific train from Bradford to Leeds, for example (I know I think it daft) but the rules say that the passenger is tied to a specific train.

 

[yorkie]

You're cherry-picking the bit that you like. The full quote is appropriate connecting trainswhere shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

Two can play at that game If National Rail Enquiries will produce an itinerary, that could be argued as making it valid.

If you are given an Advance ticket over two legs, and both trains carry reservations (it matters not whether you get a seat or whether it is counted place), then it is clear you must travel on your booked train.

I disagree. The terms state you must stick to the Virgin Train and appropriate connecting trains.

You couldn't get an EC & Connections ticket from Leeds to Inverness and decide to take any Scotrail train from Edinburgh that takes your fancy. This situation is no different.

It would be valid on "appropriate" connecting trains from Edinburgh to Inverness. Given the low frequency of trains the it arguably is different, but if the recommended connecting train was late and an earlier train was departing before it, no-one is going to say that it would not be appropriate to take it.

I am aware that East Coast officially allow passengers to take any train from Stevenage to London as part of a longer journey, and that Northern unofficially allow passengers to take any train from Bradford to Leeds or Hexham to Newcastle as part of a longer journey.

TPE, LM and GA staff have confirmed they have a policy of allowing appropriate connecting trains too.

In the OP's case I'm sure that either platform staff or the guard would have been sensible and let the OP take an earlier train to avoid a delay.

Absolutely.

I don't think booked train only could be much clearer.

I don't think appropriate connecting trains could be much clearer; clearly in this case the delayed 1250 was very much appropriate.

We might think it unreasonable or daft to tie someone to a specific train from Bradford to Leeds, for example (I know I think it daft) but the rules say that the passenger is tied to a specific train.

I don't agree with that interpretation, and neither do LM attempt to enforce it, as evidenced on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/LondonMidland/status/537313023619526656

Is a Manchester <-> Watford J Advance via "@VirginTrains & CONNECTNS" valid on any appropriate connecting @LondonMidland train MKC <-> WFJ?

Hi, yes it will be.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There really needs to be some clarification from the industry on this.

I agree, but sadly there won't be. This is because individual TOCs like to prefer "common sense" on a case-by-case basis, rather than have set rules all TOCs must follow.