Connecting the Mid-Cheshire Line to the WCML

[Isaiah]

I was wondering if anyone knows of any plans or ideas which have been thrown out in the past to connect the Mid-Cheshire Line to the WCML?

There is a certain point between Greenbank and Cuddington Stations on the mid Cheshire line (MCL), and Acton Bridge and Hartford Stations on the WCML, where the two cross each other, and I believe there is also a track which directly connects the two.

Perhaps this would be a good place to build a Lichfield Trent Valley or Liverpool South Parkway type station, or put in more tracks to connect the two?

Thanks.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Still is a link, from the Acton Bridge direction on the WCML, to Greenbank on the Mid Cheshire.

The junction names are (or were) Hartford (LNWR) Junction and Hartford CLC Junction.

See also map link...

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sid....24711&lon=-2.56061&layers=10&right=ESRIWorld

Not sure how much use the junction ever gets these days apart from the very occasional freight and/or railtour working.

Not sure either how much appetite there is for a "Mid Cheshire Parkway" station in the area, where the WCML and CLC lines intersect, or for passenger services routed Warrington Bank Quay -> Northwich -> Altrincham.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I think it sees a fair bit of use nowadays as the loaded Liverpool - Drax Biomass services go out that way, not to mention the Runcorn Folly Lane waste trains operated by Freightliner from Bredbury, Northenden and Brindle Heath plus various other aggregate type services also If I’m not mistaken.

 

[zwk500]

As has been said, the link is used for freight quite a lot.
Building a new passenger station would be problematic on the WCML because its so close to Hartfofd Station it'd take out a good chunk of track capacity of you stop trains at both. The station itself would be very poorly sited for using as an origin or destination point so you'd want trains to give local journey options. Given that the only trains that would ever stop there are LNWR stopping services to Liverpool, I'm not sure how much connectivity benefit it would really give over just going to Manchester.
If this section were 4 tracked I could see it potentially having a chance. but while it's 2 track it won't happen .

 

[bluenoxid]

What also shouldn’t be forgotten is the campaign to restore connectivity to/through Middlewich. An issue is getting into, turning and back out of Crewe without breaking the existing services.

 

[The Planner]

What also shouldn’t be forgotten is the campaign to restore connectivity to/through Middlewich. An issue is getting into, turning and back out of Crewe without breaking the existing services.

You are always going to timetable your way out of that, it would be tenuous to the extreme to use that as a reason for the infrastructure.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I think it sees a fair bit of use nowadays as the loaded Liverpool - Drax Biomass services go out that way, not to mention the Runcorn Folly Lane waste trains operated by Freightliner from Bredbury, Northenden and Brindle Heath plus various other aggregate type services also If I’m not mistaken.

Reckon that's absolutely right. Realtime trains appears to show various freight workings all during the day, such as the ones pathed from Runcorn Folly Lane to Brindle Heath and another from Bredbury RTS to Runcorn Folly Lane, using the Hartford chord, these two in the next hour or so. Not sure if they always run, but that's another matter.

 

[507020]

What also shouldn’t be forgotten is the campaign to restore connectivity to/through Middlewich. An issue is getting into, turning and back out of Crewe without breaking the existing services.

Any prospect of a connection between the WCML and Mid Cheshire line will be in the form of the line through Middlewich, not just a curve between them in a useless location.

 

[Watershed]

Any prospect of a connection between the WCML and Mid Cheshire line will be in the form of the line through Middlewich, not just a curve between them in a useless location.

Of course, one major problem with the Middlewich line is that it's painfully slow and would probably require almost complete rebuilding to increase speeds. When Avanti occasionaly divert their N Wales services via Middlewich, they never bother diverting the Chester services because (amongst other reasons) it's faster to take a coach, despite the poor road links between Crewe and Chester.

 

[Isaiah]

Perhaps a Manchester to Hartford service along the MCL would be useful? The trains going between Liverpool and Birmingham would be a useful thing to gain access to.

 

[Watershed]

Perhaps a Manchester to Hartford service along the MCL would be useful? The trains going between Liverpool and Birmingham would be a useful thing to gain access to.

You wouldn't be able to access Hartford without a new chord being built, but you could go to Acton Bridge, and with some additional signals, reverse in platform 1. You would also need to fix the level crossing issues that are currently preventing any increase beyond 1tph on the Mid Cheshire Line.

It also wouldn't exactly be easy getting a good path all the way, but you could probably manage something reasonable - and the MRTF consultation did propose for TfW's Chester/N Wales service to be diverted via the MCL, so clearly it's within the realms of feasibility.

The biggest issue I see with the whole proposal is the question of what market you're trying to serve. A link from the MCL stations to Liverpool, Birmingham etc. would be nice to have, but with the best will in the world, it's unlikely to fill trains. Certainly if the MCL and WCML were being built now, you'd likely build an interchange station where the two meet.

For example, Worcestershire Parkway has primarily been built to provide a quicker "railhead" option for from the Worcester area to Birmingham, and for shoppers and commuters to be able to avoid the traffic in Worcester. It wasn't really there to provide quicker links from the likes of Evesham to Cheltenham or Birmingham, as nice a side effect as that is.

The biggest market I could see would be for something like a Manchester to Crewe via Northwich and Middlewich service - which would provide the twin benefits of providing an (ideally) half-hourly frequency on the busier section of the MCL, and improving connectivity between the towns of that part of Cheshire, whilst also giving them a better link to London, Birmingham etc.

But even something like that seems unlikely, as there would have to be a lot of investment on the Middlewich line to build a new station and increase linespeeds. And it would effectively rule out any chance of the TfW service being diverted that way - which 'condemns' it to running to Manchester Victoria in the long term, and ultimately being split to become a second Chester-Leeds service in all likelihood.

 

[PTR 444]

You wouldn't be able to access Hartford without a new chord being built, but you could go to Acton Bridge, and with some additional signals, reverse in platform 1. You would also need to fix the level crossing issues that are currently preventing any increase beyond 1tph on the Mid Cheshire Line.

It also wouldn't exactly be easy getting a good path all the way, but you could probably manage something reasonable - and the MRTF consultation did propose for TfW's Chester/N Wales service to be diverted via the MCL, so clearly it's within the realms of feasibility.

The biggest issue I see with the whole proposal is the question of what market you're trying to serve. A link from the MCL stations to Liverpool, Birmingham etc. would be nice to have, but with the best will in the world, it's unlikely to fill trains. Certainly if the MCL and WCML were being built now, you'd likely build an interchange station where the two meet.

For example, Worcestershire Parkway has primarily been built to provide a quicker "railhead" option for from the Worcester area to Birmingham, and for shoppers and commuters to be able to avoid the traffic in Worcester. It wasn't really there to provide quicker links from the likes of Evesham to Cheltenham or Birmingham, as nice a side effect as that is.

The biggest market I could see would be for something like a Manchester to Crewe via Northwich and Middlewich service - which would provide the twin benefits of providing an (ideally) half-hourly frequency on the busier section of the MCL, and improving connectivity between the towns of that part of Cheshire, whilst also giving them a better link to London, Birmingham etc.

But even something like that seems unlikely, as there would have to be a lot of investment on the Middlewich line to build a new station and increase linespeeds. And it would effectively rule out any chance of the TfW service being diverted that way - which 'condemns' it to running to Manchester Victoria in the long term, and ultimately being split to become a second Chester-Leeds service in all likelihood.

I suppose it could be used to run a direct Manchester - Runcorn service, but then with the MCL being the long way round would it really be quicker for passengers than going via Runcorn East?

 

[Watershed]

I suppose it could be used to run a direct Manchester - Runcorn service, but then with the MCL being the long way round would it really be quicker for passengers than going via Runcorn East?

Well precisely. Journey times would be on the order of 80 minutes, which would be highly uncompetitive with the 44 minutes taken by the TfW service via Earlestown.

 

[Isaiah]

The idea is that Altrincham, etc. are supposed to get more connections. I think with the amount of people that live in these areas (along the MCL), that more services are deserved.

Look at the line that goes from Manchester Vic to Leeds, through stations like Sowerby Bridge, Mytholmroyd, Hebden Bridge, etc. They are similar type towns and they get at least three an hour!

 

[Jack Hay]

Of course, one major problem with the Middlewich line is that it's painfully slow and would probably require almost complete rebuilding to increase speeds. When Avanti occasionaly divert their N Wales services via Middlewich, they never bother diverting the Chester services because (amongst other reasons) it's faster to take a coach, despite the poor road links between Crewe and Chester.

I think we're over-stating the line speed problem on the Middlewich line. It has been well maintained in the last few years. One or two weak bridges have been replaced. The southern half has been re-signalled from Manchester ROC. The current line speed is painfully slow but this is because it doesn't need to be any faster for today's traffic use. A higher line speed means more frequent line inspections and thus higher operating costs. In the context of the proposed re-opening for passnger services, NR have told the campaign team that increasing the line speed is not seen as difficult. The largest single infrastructure cost for a re-opening, if I remember right (it's a couple of years ago) was the necessary changes to Northwich station to allow Middlewich line trains to call. Even the two new stations proposed (each having just one platform) were cheaper than modifying Northwich.

 

[A0]

The biggest market I could see would be for something like a Manchester to Crewe via Northwich and Middlewich service - which would provide the twin benefits of providing an (ideally) half-hourly frequency on the busier section of the MCL, and improving connectivity between the towns of that part of Cheshire, whilst also giving them a better link to London, Birmingham etc.

But even something like that seems unlikely, as there would have to be a lot of investment on the Middlewich line to build a new station and increase linespeeds. And it would effectively rule out any chance of the TfW service being diverted that way - which 'condemns' it to running to Manchester Victoria in the long term, and ultimately being split to become a second Chester-Leeds service in all likelihood.

Wouldn't the capacity around Navigation Road between Altrincham and Stockport be an issue? It's single line through there since Metrolink took the other line 30 years ago and there are also freight paths through there according to RTT.

At the moment it gets 2tph - 1 each way plus freights, you'd be making that 6tph plus freight.

 

[Jack Hay]

Wouldn't the capacity around Navigation Road between Altrincham and Stockport be an issue? It's single line through there since Metrolink took the other line 30 years ago and there are also freight paths through there according to RTT.

At the moment it gets 2tph - 1 each way plus freights, you'd be making that 6tph plus freight.

I don't think so. That is a very short stretch of single line and a train that doesn't call at Navigation Road will pass through in a minute or so. Northern Rail actually planned the timetable for two trains per hour in detail (the rail user group MCRUA saw it and were able to comment) and this single line wasn't a difficulty.

 

[Watershed]

Wouldn't the capacity around Navigation Road between Altrincham and Stockport be an issue? It's single line through there since Metrolink took the other line 30 years ago and there are also freight paths through there according to RTT.

At the moment it gets 2tph - 1 each way plus freights, you'd be making that 6tph plus freight.

No - Metrolink run 12 trams per hour through that section. Obviously adding additional trains wouldn't be great for crossing 'down times' but the only level-crossing related concerns that were raised when the TfW service was proposed were around some private farm crossings further west/south.

 

[Isaiah]

No - Metrolink run 12 trams per hour through that section. Obviously adding additional trains wouldn't be great for crossing 'down times' but the only level-crossing related concerns that were raised when the TfW service was proposed were around some private farm crossings further west/south.

Can you provide me with some more information on this proposed TfW service?

 

[Watershed]

Can you provide me with some more information on this proposed TfW service?

One of the proposed output options of the MRTF consultation involved the TfW N Wales/Chester-Manchester Airport via Warrington service being rerouted via Northwich, forming a semifast service over the route. However, that option was discounted on account of level crossing issues, amongst other reasons.