• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Connecting Skipton/Bradford to Harrogate!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Halish Railway

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2017
Messages
2,177
Location
West Yorkshire / Birmingham
If you had an Otley to Guiseley route, would there be 2tph to both Bradford and Leeds? Pretty sure some doubling would be required whatever happens.
2tph from Otley to Bradford is pretty unlikely - The current Ilkley to Bradford services carry a lot a of fresh air, so this existing service can be utilised better by having a well put together timetable with connection times of 5-10 minutes between the Otley to Leeds services and the Ilkley to Bradford services.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

YorksLad12

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2020
Messages
2,722
Location
Leeds
Ultimately, I suppose the answer to the question of how to connect Skipton/Ilkley/Bradford to Harrogate is... change at Leeds. Fifty or sixty years ago, if the routes between Skipton and Ilkley and Otley to Arthington hadn't been pulled and subsequently built on (with the through platforms 3 & 4 at Ilkley also going) there may have been more noise from local groups for some form of reinstating. These days, crayons are all we have o_O
 

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036
Ultimately, I suppose the answer to the question of how to connect Skipton/Ilkley/Bradford to Harrogate is... change at Leeds. Fifty or sixty years ago, if the routes between Skipton and Ilkley and Otley to Arthington hadn't been pulled and subsequently built on (with the through platforms 3 & 4 at Ilkley also going) there may have been more noise from local groups for some form of reinstating. These days, crayons are all we have o_O

Skipton to Harrogate via Leeds is a hell of a detour! A direct bus would make much more sense - but there isn't one which is rather ridiculous given that they are the two neighbouring regional centres.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
21,985
Location
Airedale
Skipton to Harrogate via Leeds is a hell of a detour! A direct bus would make much more sense - but there isn't one which is rather ridiculous given that they are the two neighbouring regional centres.
There was one some years ago IIRC - the problem is that the A59 passes nowhere of any significance en route, while the alternative via Ilkley and Otley has traditionally been the bus route to Leeds.
Apart from being in the same administrative county since 1974 (and now CofE diocese) I am not sure Craven looks much to Harrogate or v.v.
 

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036
There was one some years ago IIRC - the problem is that the A59 passes nowhere of any significance en route, while the alternative via Ilkley and Otley has traditionally been the bus route to Leeds.
Apart from being in the same administrative county since 1974 (and now CofE diocese) I am not sure Craven looks much to Harrogate or v.v.

Could go via Grassington and Pateley Bridge - which would be longer but would serve two small towns and a number of villages. Not sure how a bus would cope with Greehow Hill, though!

There are plenty of buses from Skipton the other way - regularly to Colne and Burnley, and less frequently to Clitheroe.

The Craven area probably looks as much to Harrogate as it does to Bradford! Leeds is of course the main regional centre though.
 

YorksLad12

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2020
Messages
2,722
Location
Leeds
There was one some years ago IIRC - the problem is that the A59 passes nowhere of any significance en route, while the alternative via Ilkley and Otley has traditionally been the bus route to Leeds.
Apart from being in the same administrative county since 1974 (and now CofE diocese) I am not sure Craven looks much to Harrogate or v.v.
But interestingly they were both in the West Riding! It's odd; there used to be a route across the Dales from Garsdale to Northallerton, and this southerly route from Skipton via Ilkley, Otley and Arthington, but never a direct route mirroring the A59. I guess it was too difficult to engineer, even for Railway Mania times... and difficult to do now, unless you swing north a bit, skirt Menwith Hill (which doesn't exist), south of Killinghall and connect into the former curve to Ripon to enter Harrogate from the north.
 

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036
But interestingly they were both in the West Riding! It's odd; there used to be a route across the Dales from Garsdale to Northallerton, and this southerly route from Skipton via Ilkley, Otley and Arthington, but never a direct route mirroring the A59. I guess it was too difficult to engineer, even for Railway Mania times... and difficult to do now, unless you swing north a bit, skirt Menwith Hill (which doesn't exist), south of Killinghall and connect into the former curve to Ripon to enter Harrogate from the north.

Possibly just not enough demand given how many lines there were and where the towns are?

There were branchlines to Grassington from the Skipton side, and Pateley Bridge from the Harrogate side (with a light railway going up even further at one time, for reservoir construction). The distance between those two isn't great, but the terrain means it would have been a difficult job to connect them (although probably no more so than bits of the S&C).
 

bluenoxid

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2008
Messages
2,663
I seem to recall seeing a Victorian proposal that would have pushed the Grassington line further up the valley there before a tunnel towards a valley into Leyburn

Could go via Grassington and Pateley Bridge - which would be longer but would serve two small towns and a number of villages. Not sure how a bus would cope with Greehow Hill, though!

There are plenty of buses from Skipton the other way - regularly to Colne and Burnley, and less frequently to Clitheroe.

The Craven area probably looks as much to Harrogate as it does to Bradford! Leeds is of course the main regional centre though.

Skipton - Colne is about half the distance with decent traffic generators mid way compared to the bleak route between Skipton and Harrogate.
 

37424

Member
Joined
10 Apr 2020
Messages
1,064
Location
Leeds
Skipton to Harrogate via Leeds is a hell of a detour! A direct bus would make much more sense - but there isn't one which is rather ridiculous given that they are the two neighbouring regional centres.
But for the the level demand probably adequate. The fact its a significant detour doesn't really matter plenty of those on the rail network, the key issue is journey time and if there are any faster alternative. By car its about 35 mins, I guess a reasonably direct bus would be about 45+ mins and the train is about 1h 30 perhaps slightly depending on connections at Leeds.

Overall I expect for the demand its OK and if you want to spend money on Rail Improvement in Yorkshire then I'm sure there are a whole load of better candidates than this one.

As for Otley Leeds has to be the main draw I would push for a proper spur to the Airport and combine it with a park and ride scheme for the Yeadon and out to Otley.
 

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036
Overall I expect for the demand its OK and if you want to spend money on Rail Improvement in Yorkshire then I'm sure there are a whole load of better candidates than this one.

I agree - but there is a case for a bus service and at present there are no direct buses at all.
 

quantinghome

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2013
Messages
2,913
As for Otley Leeds has to be the main draw I would push for a proper spur to the Airport and combine it with a park and ride scheme for the Yeadon and out to Otley.
Hard to see what that would look like in reality, unless you plan for a whole lot of tunneling. The route of the old Otley branch from Menston is pretty much clear of obstruction and could be rebuilt for a fraction of the cost of a 'proper spur' to the Airport (which is reckoned at £350million). WYCA's mass transit plans suggest a tram-train option for Otley which would allow a route in to the centre rather than the old station site on the bypass.
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
7,900
It is a near universal truth that in West Yorkshire the majority of travellers want to go to Leeds.

Any potential investment in new routes that doesn't follow this norm will struggle for viability.
 

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036
It is a near universal truth that in West Yorkshire the majority of travellers want to go to Leeds.

Any potential investment in new routes that doesn't follow this norm will struggle for viability.

It's really not!

Yes, Leeds is the regional centre so gets the most traffic but that doesn't mean nobody goes anywhere else. As regards trains, it's necessary to go into Leeds and change to get between many West Yorkshire towns which will further increase the impression that everybody is going to Leeds.
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
7,900
It's really not!

Yes, Leeds is the regional centre so gets the most traffic but that doesn't mean nobody goes anywhere else. As regards trains, it's necessary to go into Leeds and change to get between many West Yorkshire towns which will further increase the impression that everybody is going to Leeds.
I didn't say that nobody goes anywhere else. I said that the majority want to go to Leeds. Therefore the passenger numbers on other potential routes are unlikely to make them viable.

Ilkley to Bradford services are hardly rammed, for example.
 

37424

Member
Joined
10 Apr 2020
Messages
1,064
Location
Leeds
I didn't say that nobody goes anywhere else. I said that the majority want to go to Leeds. Therefore the passenger numbers on other potential routes are unlikely to make them viable.

Ilkley to Bradford services are hardly rammed, for example.
Indeed Leeds is the Transport hub and the major centre of West Yorkshire. In terms of commuting Leeds will be the primary destination but I think also has the highest potential work from home jobs so could see a bigger reduction in commuting long term. Leeds will survive as a shopping centre and destination, Bradford might just about hang on, but the rest of them Dewsbury already a goner, Huddersfield, Halifax, Wakefield, etc to follow.
 

Neptune

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2018
Messages
2,626
Location
Yorkshire
Ilkley to Bradford services are hardly rammed, for example.
They weren’t even rammed in the peaks pre-COVID nor indeed were the Skipton - Bradford’s. Bear in mind these routes are both in the Bradford catchment area. Bradford as a leisure destination is also dead in the water.

For instance I live 5 miles from Bradford and 12 miles from Leeds and my local station has services to both. Many years ago (20+) I would happily go into Bradford. Now there is no way on earth I would chose Bradford for anything over Leeds as Bradford has nothing to offer and Leeds has so much. The last time I went into Bradford apart from working trains was...... well I can’t remember. Linking a direct service to Harrogate will not change this.
 

Halish Railway

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2017
Messages
2,177
Location
West Yorkshire / Birmingham
They weren’t even rammed in the peaks pre-COVID nor indeed were the Skipton - Bradford’s. Bear in mind these routes are both in the Bradford catchment area. Bradford as a leisure destination is also dead in the water.
They're well used by school kids going to the likes of Ikley Brammar, Bradford Grammar, Menston St Mary's and theres one at Guiseley that I can't remember the name of.
 

Neptune

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2018
Messages
2,626
Location
Yorkshire
They're well used by school kids going to the likes of Ikley Brammar, Bradford Grammar, Menston St Mary's and theres one at Guiseley that I can't remember the name of.
None of which sees them go physically into Bradford. You will always get trains of kids going to school wherever (Pontefract to Streethouse for instance) but would re-opening the Otley line at great expense justify it for a couple of school trains a day?
 

Halish Railway

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2017
Messages
2,177
Location
West Yorkshire / Birmingham
None of which sees them go physically into Bradford. You will always get trains of kids going to school wherever (Pontefract to Streethouse for instance) but would re-opening the Otley line at great expense justify it for a couple of school trains a day?
I'm not suggesting a direct Otley/Harrogate train at all, merely that at times a half-hourly Ilkley to Bradford train can be justified, although as previously stated they do carry around quite a lot of fresh air during the rest of the day that can be filled by having a reasonably short connection time between these services and a potential Leeds to Otley/Harrogate via Guiseley service - Realistically thats probably the best comprimise between having a Leeds biased service pattern and links to Bradford.
 

YorksLad12

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2020
Messages
2,722
Location
Leeds
They weren’t even rammed in the peaks pre-COVID nor indeed were the Skipton - Bradford’s. Bear in mind these routes are both in the Bradford catchment area. Bradford as a leisure destination is also dead in the water.

For instance I live 5 miles from Bradford and 12 miles from Leeds and my local station has services to both. Many years ago (20+) I would happily go into Bradford. Now there is no way on earth I would chose Bradford for anything over Leeds as Bradford has nothing to offer and Leeds has so much. The last time I went into Bradford apart from working trains was...... well I can’t remember. Linking a direct service to Harrogate will not change this.
I always think it's interesting to compare the relationship between the cities of Leeds and Bradford with that between the cities of Manchester and Salford. I don't think of Leeds as the centre of the West Riding universe (though it is the centre of mine) but the "everyone goes to Leeds" argument doesn't seem to fully explain the lack of investment, including in rail. Would Bradford Central Station connecting Forster Square and Interchange have made a difference, if it had been done?
 

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036
I always think it's interesting to compare the relationship between the cities of Leeds and Bradford with that between the cities of Manchester and Salford. I don't think of Leeds as the centre of the West Riding universe (though it is the centre of mine) but the "everyone goes to Leeds" argument doesn't seem to fully explain the lack of investment, including in rail. Would Bradford Central Station connecting Forster Square and Interchange have made a difference, if it had been done?

Manchester and Salford are close enough together that they are effectively one city. Leeds and Bradford are that much further apart that they aren't although they are pretty much joined. Basic issue is that there is only a need for one regional centre, and that's Leeds - hence Bradford is very much in its shadow. No doubt it hasn't helped that Bradford has lost its industries and had nothing much to replace it (whereas Leeds now has a lot of law and finance related jobs), and the awful 1960s rebuilding of a lot of Bradford city centre made it actively unpleasant, especially as this became tired and worn out. The several years of 'the hole' when much of this was demolished leaving a large hole in the ground won't have helped either.

To be honest, Halifax and Huddersfield town centres have as much or more to offer than Bradford - out of the three I'd say Halifax is probably the best of them.
 

Neptune

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2018
Messages
2,626
Location
Yorkshire
I'm not suggesting a direct Otley/Harrogate train at all, merely that at times a half-hourly Ilkley to Bradford train can be justified, although as previously stated they do carry around quite a lot of fresh air during the rest of the day that can be filled by having a reasonably short connection time between these services and a potential Leeds to Otley/Harrogate via Guiseley service - Realistically thats probably the best comprimise between having a Leeds biased service pattern and links to Bradford.
The Ilkley/Skipton - Bradford services can justify a half hourly service in the peaks (not just Bradford flows or school flows but flows of people working in the other major towns en route. If they weren’t in the Metro area they would have been reduced to hourly between the peaks years ago.

As a for instance, a train I regularly worked pre-COVID was the 1404 Skipton - Bradford with a 360 seat 4 car 333. You were lucky if you saw 10 people on it. By contrast the 1347 Skipton - Leeds was seeing in the region of 100 people on it, 10 times the figure.
Would Bradford Central Station connecting Forster Square and Interchange have made a difference, if it had been done?
We’ll never know but the usage may have slightly increased with cross-Bradford flows (Halifax - Shipley for instance). I don’t think it would encourage more people to go to Bradford than now though as the catchment area is exactly the same.
Manchester and Salford are close enough together that they are effectively one city. Leeds and Bradford are that much further apart that they aren't although they are pretty much joined. Basic issue is that there is only a need for one regional centre, and that's Leeds - hence Bradford is very much in its shadow. No doubt it hasn't helped that Bradford has lost its industries and had nothing much to replace it (whereas Leeds now has a lot of law and finance related jobs), and the awful 1960s rebuilding of a lot of Bradford city centre made it actively unpleasant, especially as this became tired and worn out. The several years of 'the hole' when much of this was demolished leaving a large hole in the ground won't have helped either.

To be honest, Halifax and Huddersfield town centres have as much or more to offer than Bradford - out of the three I'd say Halifax is probably the best of them.
Bradford died as a city once Leeds got its act together 30 years ago. Businesses moved east due to the better business rates on offer and once a cluster of firms move there more inevitably follow. Look at Little Germany in Bradford. It’s ripe for small or start up businesses but remains largely empty. A wonderful district like this would have been full if it was in Leeds or Manchester.

Bradford Clowncil do not help. They’d rather spend money on pointless vanity projects like city of culture bids which the city will never win, rather than spend it on what is needed here and now.

I remember when the mills above Forster Square station were converted into flats and the big banner by them said ‘only a 20 minute commute to Leeds’. Says it all really. Bradford just isn’t needed anymore.
 

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
4,450
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
It's really not!

Yes, Leeds is the regional centre so gets the most traffic but that doesn't mean nobody goes anywhere else. As regards trains, it's necessary to go into Leeds and change to get between many West Yorkshire towns which will further increase the impression that everybody is going to Leeds.

Forgive me here, but I was under the impression that it is (or was) Wakefield that is the regional centre of West Yorkshire, as it is (or was) the seat of the West Riding and West Yorkshire County Council.

Also, are West Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive (or whatever incarnation they are nowadays) based in Wakefield or Leeds? In my original neck of the woods of the West Midlands, WMPTE (Centro) are based in Birmingham, as that was the administrative centre of the former West Midlands County Council.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,639
Location
Northampton
Forgive me here, but I was under the impression that it is (or was) Wakefield that is the regional centre of West Yorkshire, as it is (or was) the seat of the West Riding and West Yorkshire County Council.

Also, are West Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive (or whatever incarnation they are nowadays) based in Wakefield or Leeds? In my original neck of the woods of the West Midlands, WMPTE (Centro) are based in Birmingham, as that was the administrative centre of the former West Midlands County Council.
Leeds is the centre of employment, retail, leisure, population, sport and higher education (among others) in quite a wide region, not just West Yorkshire (it also dominates North Yorkshire as far as Harrogate/Scarborough and competes strongly with Sheffield in South Yorkshire, for example). Travel demand from everywhere will be higher to Leeds than it will be to Wakefield. Leeds is also a key hub on the Road and Rail networks, so many journeys will need to route via Leeds for further onward travel. I doubt many people travel to Wakefield for it's connections.

Being the administrative centre of an area is really a very small journey generator, and has no relation to being the regional hub.
 

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036
Leeds is the centre of employment, retail, leisure, population, sport and higher education (among others) in quite a wide region, not just West Yorkshire (it also dominates North Yorkshire as far as Harrogate/Scarborough and competes strongly with Sheffield in South Yorkshire, for example). Travel demand from everywhere will be higher to Leeds than it will be to Wakefield. Leeds is also a key hub on the Road and Rail networks, so many journeys will need to route via Leeds for further onward travel. I doubt many people travel to Wakefield for it's connections.

Being the administrative centre of an area is really a very small journey generator, and has no relation to being the regional hub.

Yes, indeed, but the point about Wakefield is out of date too.

Historically, Wakefield was indeed the county town of the West Riding. In 1974, when there were widespread boundary reorganisations (which included a large lump at the top going into North Yorkshire and a lump at the south becoming South Yorkshire), Wakefield became the county town of the revised county, West Yorkshire.

In 1986 West Yorkshire was abolished as an adminstrative unit and split into five unitary authorities (Leeds, Bradford, Wakefield, Calderdale (Halifax) and Kirklees (Hudersfield)). This remains the current structure, although in 2014 a West Yorkshire Combined Authority (based in Leeds) was created which has devolved responsibilty for a few things (including transport) across the five unitary authorities.
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
7,900
They weren’t even rammed in the peaks pre-COVID nor indeed were the Skipton - Bradford’s. Bear in mind these routes are both in the Bradford catchment area. Bradford as a leisure destination is also dead in the water.

For instance I live 5 miles from Bradford and 12 miles from Leeds and my local station has services to both. Many years ago (20+) I would happily go into Bradford. Now there is no way on earth I would chose Bradford for anything over Leeds as Bradford has nothing to offer and Leeds has so much. The last time I went into Bradford apart from working trains was...... well I can’t remember. Linking a direct service to Harrogate will not change this.
We are the same. Bradford is closer than Leeds but it would never occur to us to go to Bradford for shopping or a meal out. Leeds, Skipton or Harrogate would be the options, in descending order of likelihood. Perhaps with a direct train to Harrogate it might jump up the list!
 

Halifaxlad

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2018
Messages
1,792
Location
The White Rose County
Well I seem to have generated an interesting discussion, anyway I think someone commented saying 'where does it say that' well I was looking at this map that can be found on page 57 of the document....

West Yorkshire Rail Strategy
A vision for rail in the region
January 2021'

WYCA RS MAP.png

that can be downloaded from here:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top