Conflicting Advice From Train Crew

[SailRail]

I get a weekly rail ticket between Brandon and Cambridge every week. As I buy it on a Monday it expires on a Sunday. However, the staff at Cambridge have always told me to just travel to Cambridge on the Monday and renew the ticket there as Brandon is unmanned and has no options for buying a ticket at the station. I do this because if I get it in Cambridge it covers me to Thetford if I need to go there but if I buy it on the train it only covers me from Brandon. This has never presented any problem in the past neither with onboard crew or staff at Cambridge. However, today the onboard crew member insisted on me buying a ticket onboard. I didn't have a problem with this but when my card declined in his machine he warned me about a penalty fare. I explained what the staff at Cambridge had said time and again. However, he said I had boarded the train without a valid form of payment. I said I hadn't and that its not my fault the card didn't work in his machine to which he said our machine doesn't accept it, its your problem. How? Because the train company's machinery doesn't work properly its somehow my fault? He also said in normal circumstances I should get off at Ely, pay there and then board a later train but that he'd let me travel today. My question is, was he being heavy handed or are the staff at Cambridge wrong about what they have told me time and time again to do? Also, how can my presenting a valid bank card which works in every other circumstance of usage mean I did something wrong when its his machine that's malfunctioned? Sounds a bit like saying if the brakes don't work on the train its my fault for boarding it.
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I double checked when I arrived in Cambridge and they had no problem with it. They said arriving in Cambridge was my first opportunity to renew as I had boarded at an unmanned station so I was doing the right thing. When I asked should I have gotten off at Ely and got back on he told me no, its not realistic. So why do onboard crew and station staff have two completely conflicting policies?

 

[button_boxer]

I get a weekly rail ticket between Brandon and Cambridge every week. As I buy it on a Monday it expires on a Sunday.

If there's no break in validity, you can renew a weekly season ticket that expires on Sunday any time after noon on the previous Friday. So the safest thing to do would be to buy the following week's ticket at Cambridge station on the Friday afternoon before you catch your final train of the week back to Brandon.

 

[tsr]

Cambridge staff are both correct and incorrect really - if you are presented with an opportunity to pay then you must do so (unless it means missing a valid connection, which I don't believe is relevant here), whether this is on the train or later on. However, if it is the policy of the train operator not to accept cards which decline when used onboard (IMHO not the best policy in the world, and not one which my employer (a different operator) goes along with, I'm pleased to say) but which have a link to available funds, then you may find that your only opportunity to pay by your chosen method is when alighting at Cambridge. This has been debated many, many times on here and various outcomes have arisen as a result of similar situations. Having an "online only" card which does not work in the Chip & PIN machines on trains, which are generally speaking working offline, is often not the customer's fault, as it is not usually widely publicised by banks and you have to know what you're asking them for in order to get an appropriate financial product, which is not always the domain of a normal bank customer's knowledge.

I am curious as to which ticket you are trying to buy, though - it should be that all 7 day seasons between any applicable stations on the National Rail network should be available on an Avantix (possibly with a few odd local restrictions here and there), including those different route/operator restrictions. Can you tell us what you usually buy, maybe including a photo, so we can see which ticket it is and whether it can actually be sold onboard? Make sure you do not include personal details.

 

[maniacmartin]

I don't want to reopen the discussions about online-only debit cards not working on guards' Avantix machines, and whose fault it is, but suffice to say that it will be a lot less hassle if you board with cash.

The guard on-board will most likely be able to sell you a season that starts at Thetford if you ask for that.

 

[Be3G]

I would guess, from the mention of Thetford, that the desired ticket could be an Anglia Plus (Cambridgeshire zone)? Weekly versions of these are available to buy from the conductor on a train, but perhaps for some reason that hasn't been made very clear to the OP as they're not quite a standard season ticket.

 

[Sleepy]

Unfortunately Brandon has a reputation with guards for having a high amount of fare evader types frequenting with online only cards which they know will not work ! The best solutions are renew Friday previous, cash or tell your bank to issue a unrestricted debit card !

 

[father_jack]

The solution in my part of the world is to buy a cash single onboard (and not letting it get swallowed if there are barriers at destination) and then buy your ticket and get a refund for your single at the destination, assuming it's a "major" station. Said process is used more often when a monthly is needed. Thinking about it's probably the same process for a PERTIS back in the day.

 

[reb0118]

There are two distinct problems here, viz.: the requirement to purchase a ticket at the first opportunity; and the perennial "card declined" saga.

When boarding a "pay train" at an unstaffed station you must be in a position to pay for at least the single fare to your destination from the guard when he passes though. You can also purchase any other ticket as required if the guard is able to sell it to you, if not you still need to purchase the single and "part exchange" that at the first opportunity to your required ticket - you can purchase most weeklies on board if you also posses a season photo card. You may be given permission to purchase later but I would get this in writing in case you meet a RPI before you can do this.

A debit card is not in and of itself a valid method of payment but is merely a medium to transfer funds from your account to the railway's. The payment is only accepted if your bank authorises the transaction. If your bank deems you a credit risk it will not allow you to make any "off line transactions" and these include transactions made on a moving train via the guard's avantix machine.*

I can understand your confusion but in my opinion the previous members of staff have been lax in explaining the correct system to you so no doubt you were "shocked" when a different member of traincrew attempted to enforce the rules.

*Let's hope that these card declined problems will shortly be a thing of the past when new on board ticket issuing systems are issued in the next few months.

Renew [on the] Friday previous.

Good call! You can renew from 12:00 on the previous Friday.

Cash.

Never fails!

Tell your bank to issue a unrestricted debit card .

One way to do this is to ask for contactless on your account. It is extremely rare for contactless cards to decline on board.

 

[Starmill]

A debit card is in and of itself is not a valid method of payment but is merely a medium to transfer funds from your account to the railway's. The payment is only accepted if your bank authorises the transaction. If your bank deems you a credit risk it will not allow you to make any "off line transactions" and these include transactions made on a moving train via the guard's avantix machine.

I was with you until this point. Cards aren't a payment method!? In that case neither is money, it's a reciept worthless until exchanged and you equally can't have your ticket until the train company has delivered it to the Bank of England.

Complete nonsense in short.

 

[reb0118]

In that case neither is money

Cash is king!

A debit card in and of itself is not a valid method of payment

Cards aren't a payment method

These two statements do not mean the same thing. A debit card on its own is not a valid method of payment. Something else has to happen for that to occur - the transaction has to be authorised.

I agree that the railway's "fall back" systems, for when this does not happen, leave a lot to be desired.

 

[yorkie]

I will add something that doesn't answer the question but may make things a bit easier for you and save you money: have you considered purchasing a Season to last you 5 weeks? Ignoring annual leave and bank holidays, you'd normally start it on a Monday and finish on a Friday. This will cost less than 5 x weeklies and save hassle too!

Example savings:
12/10 to 13/11 5 weeklies = £322.00 or 1 month & 2 days = £264.10 (saving £11.58 each week!)

The savings are less when there are fewer days in the month, but greater if you can take annual leave or bank holidays into account.

 

[sheff1]

Is the Anglia Plus ticket available for non-standard periods ?



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Cash

Never fails!

The 'Scottish Notes' thread suggests otherwise

 

[Romilly]

Is the Anglia Plus ticket available for non-standard periods ?

The AGA website says:

Anglia Plus season tickets are only available for fixed periods of one week, one month and one year. The start date can be any day, however.

 

[sheff1]

Thanks. I thought I had seen that somewhere.

In which case 5 x £49.60 (£248) is cheaper that yorkie's point to point season suggestion.

 

[reb0118]

The 'Scottish Notes' thread suggests otherwise

One place you can guarantee that a Scottish Note should be accepted is on a train or at a booking office. Although when in a rush the rather fetching clerkess at Salisbury wanted to show all her colleagues that she had just accepted a "Harry Potter Tenner" aka a BoS £10 with the Glenfinnan Viaduct on the back.

I take your point, however.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

A debit card is in and of itself is not a valid method of payment but is merely a medium to transfer funds from your account to the railway's. The payment is only accepted if your bank authorises the transaction. If your bank deems you a credit risk it will not allow you to make any "off line transactions" and these include transactions made on a moving train via the guard's avantix machine.*

You are quite correct in giving this advice to SailRail, unwelcome as it may be.

I was with you until this point. Cards aren't a payment method!? In that case neither is money, it's a reciept worthless until exchanged and you equally can't have your ticket until the train company has delivered it to the Bank of England.

Complete nonsense in short.

This is bad advice to SailRail, and with a misleading conclusion.
Custom and practice of treating cards as payment does not imply that presenting a card necessarily discharges their debt, nor does it relieve the passenger who has already begun travel without a valid ticket of their obligation to regularise the situation by buying one when an opportunity is presented, an opportunity which reasonable persons would find acceptable in discharging that debt. Money is a payment method.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks. I thought I had seen that somewhere.

In which case 5 x £49.60 (£248) is cheaper that yorkie's point to point season suggestion.

I was just going by "I get a weekly rail ticket between Brandon and Cambridge every week" if a different ticket is being requested I'll stand aside and let others with local knowledge advise!

I would suggest the OP contacts the Company for their official policy on various relevant matters, including obtaining clarification regarding acceptable payment methods.

 

[Be3G]

I was just going by "I get a weekly rail ticket between Brandon and Cambridge every week" if a different ticket is being requested I'll stand aside and let others with local knowledge advise!

As mentioned previously I assume it's the Cambridgeshire Anglia Plus being requested by the OP as they say that when they buy from the station, their ticket allows them to use Thetford station too – Thetford is the last station (in that direction) in that Anglia Plus zone. Of course I could be wrong and the OP is just requesting a Thetford to Cambridge season! (Although considering the ridiculous price difference between that and an Anglia Plus, they'd have to love Cross Country to want to buy such a ticket…)