Confirmation that Pacers should be abolished

[starrymarkb]

was this on the 30th?

if so there were 30 mile queues on the M5 between Bridgwater and Clevedon that day.

 

[12CSVT]

i wouldn't wanna be on a pacer in a crash i'd rather crash a gwizz into on coming traffic on the m5

Quite agree. Thankfully both class 142 write-offs (008 at Winsford and 059 at Liverpool) were on ECS workings at the time. I'd feel safer in a Mk1.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I agree there not the safest of units but like many say crashs are so rare these days its negligible, how many people have died on the railways in last 5 years as a direct result of a crash? i think it's 1 (gayrigg correct me if im wrong) The selby crash which killed a few was caused by a car! As was a bad one with the FGW HST on the level crossing. To be honest rail is the safest form of transport and chances of high speed collisions very low for many reasons.
Arn't emergency brakes actually pretty good on trains that 87 slowed from 80 to 50 before hitting the 142.

Much safer than road i'd take rail anyday cos i can trust that a drunken train driver won't go on a cop chase and swerve across the lines while driving a a Voyager.

 

[northwichcat]

Statistically they're pretty safe, like any train. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. You're in a lot more danger walking to the station to catch one.

Having been on Pacers that have done emergency stops on two occasions I'm actually surprised that no-one was taken to hospital on either occasion.

The first time it was a very sudden stop and a lot of people were thrown against the seats in front. The second time the stop wasn't as sudden but there was an out-of-use 150 attached to the 142 in service and it felt like something had crashed in to the back of the Pacer. On both occasions people were complaining of strained necks but the conductors were acting like nothing unusual had happened.

 

[scotsman]

Ok, put it another way then. Would you rather be in a Pacer crash or a bus crash?

The stats can be manipulated to show whatever you like.

 

[northwichcat]

Many people drive cars that scored badly in EuroNCAP crash tests (like the Rover Metro/100), but no-one says that all cars with poor crash test results should be banned from the road!

With Euro NCAP tests many things are taken in to consideration and the ones that score low are because it would put the driver's safety at risk not other road users. If car owners want to buy a cheap car that puts their life at risk then it's their choice. With trains you don't get a cheaper ticket for travelling on a less safe train or get a choice of which traction you'd like to travel on.

If you look at some crash tests for 1980 British Leyland double decker buses when they go under a low bridge the whole top deck is sliced off. With newer buses that doesn't happen which suggests that the British Leyland bus framework is less safe than other frameworks.

Trains may be a safer form of travel overall but the recent lorry/train crash could have easily occurred somewhere else, not because of a driver ignoring instructions but either due to out-of-order lights on a level crossing or a power cut in the area of the level crossing.
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Ok, put it another way then. Would you rather be in a Pacer crash or a bus crash?

I've actually been on a coach that was involved in a minor coach crash on the A556 near Gadbrook Park and everyone was fine and transferred to another coach within 15 minutes.

Pacers can and do travel faster than a bus or coach legally can and aren't stronger than modern buses and coaches meaning the impact of a Pacer crashing in to another Pacer at 75mph could be worse than two coaches colliding on a motorway.

 

[Greenback]

How many coach crashes are there a year? How many pacer crashes?

 

[sprinterguy]

And if you happened to run a class 87 at high speed into a coach, just how much would be left compared to the unfortunate 142008?

Pacers, and trains generally, are far safer than coach travel, as there are FAR less accidents occuring on the railways compared to the roads, and I reckon even a Pacer would stand up to a high impact crash better than a coach in a similar collision.

 

[Vulcan]

Strange that some people have said they won't travel on pacers because they believe them to be unsafe, but will probably happily travel in a car.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If you look at some crash tests for 1980 British Leyland double decker buses when they go under a low bridge the whole top deck is sliced off. With newer buses that doesn't happen which suggests that the British Leyland bus framework is less safe than other frameworks.

A couple of years ago someone took a reasonably recent double decker under the arch bridge ( B284 Hook Road in Epsom ) and forgot to move into the middle of the road to do so.

On my way home from work I walked under that bridge past the newly converted open top bus, which was just beyond the bridge towards the A24 East Street while the entire roof was on the road on the other side of the bridge...

 

[142094]

Having been on Pacers that have done emergency stops on two occasions I'm actually surprised that no-one was taken to hospital on either occasion.

The first time it was a very sudden stop and a lot of people were thrown against the seats in front. The second time the stop wasn't as sudden but there was an out-of-use 150 attached to the 142 in service and it felt like something had crashed in to the back of the Pacer. On both occasions people were complaining of strained necks but the conductors were acting like nothing unusual had happened.

To be honest, I'd expect people to have some sort of neck strain after an emergency stop on any type of train. Still doesn't mean to say that Pacers are unsafe.

 

[Drsatan]

Strange that some people have said they won't travel on pacers because they believe them to be unsafe, but will probably happily travel in a car.

Which could be driven by someone who's tired, drunk or on drugs, whereas it's highly unlikely that the driver of a Pacer will be incapacitated.

Not forgetting that the car might be relatively unsafe in a crash, having scored a poor EURO Ncap test score (e.g. a Rover 100, or a Reva G-Wiz, God forbid ), or no score at all since it hadn't been tested. Given their propensity to spontaneously burst into flames I don't think a Ferrari 458 would provide much protection in an accident, so I've got an idea: if Pacers are banned because they're unsafe ban Ferrari 458s as well !

 

[Vulcan]

I went to Batley Fire Station with uni for a demo of how they cut people out of cars (and they let us have a go with the jaws of life ) Its amazing how soft cars really are, the cutters make light work of it.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

To be honest, I'd expect people to have some sort of neck strain after an emergency stop on any type of train. Still doesn't mean to say that Pacers are unsafe.

I have had the dubious honour of having experienced a full emergency stop from 186mpg on a TGV-A set between Paris and Le Mans back in 1992; it was comparable to a jetliner slamming on the reverse thrust upon landing.

 

[jimrbrobinson]

The current issue of Rail magazine (issue 652) carries a letter about 142s on page 38. It makes similar point regarding the crash-worthiness of 142s compared to the 156 involved in the collision near Sudbury. The writer appears to call upon "the RAIB to take the safe deployment of these less robust units over user-controlled level crossings into account during its inquiries". Now, what interest the RAIB would possibly have in this case for any mention of class 142s escapes me, but I can't help feeling that there is a general level of discontent with this class, and some will jump on any opportunity to try and call for them to be scrapped by any means.

 

[142094]

Could call it class-snobbery really. To me Pacers do the job they are required to do, perhaps they are used on routes that are unsuitable but we've got nothing to replace them with yet so I don't see the problem.

 

[tbtc]

I can't help feeling that there is a general level of discontent with this class, and some will jump on any opportunity to try and call for them to be scrapped by any means.

Spot on Jim

 

[MCR247]

Spot on Jim

Quite similar to your point about people having a go at NX, but its alright if WSMR do it

 

[Clip]

I quite enjoy getting on a pacer - I know they are rubbish but theres something that evokes childhood memories which i love..

 

[yorksrob]

As an ex-pacer hater, I have to congratulate Northern Rail on their latest refurbs. Decent seats, nice ambience. If they go through the fleet like a prawn vindaloo and get rid of the bus and Merseyrail type seats for the rest of them, the Pacers will be fine for a long time to come. Lack of tables is still a bit of a pain. If they could include some seat-back ones for the next lot it would help.

 

[jimrbrobinson]

As an ex-pacer hater, I have to congratulate Northern Rail on their latest refurbs. Decent seats, nice ambience. If they go through the fleet like a prawn vindaloo and get rid of the bus and Merseyrail type seats for the rest of them, the Pacers will be fine for a long time to come. Lack of tables is still a bit of a pain. If they could include some seat-back ones for the next lot it would help.

I'd agree with that. Something like the seats on the TPE 185's perhaps. I've found them more than adequate when I've used them.

 

[tbtc]

Quite similar to your point about people having a go at NX, but its alright if WSMR do it

I'll be honest and admit that I've come round to like Pacers - "love" would be too strong a word, but I can appreciate that they still function and that we need them to do that job.

I certainly don't remember anyone saying "all 156s should be scrapped" after two of them suffered in accidents in the space of a few weeks. You know that if the same two accidents had happened to Pacers (regardless of the fact that the *train* wasn't at fault in either accident), we'd see dozens of "MUST SCRAP PACERS" posts.

(I suppose that more people have lost their lives in HSTs/ 225s over the years, but people are sensible enough not to go for a knee jerk reaction and demand they are all scrapped)

 

[WatcherZero]

My sentiments tbtc, they are a neccesary evil that will be around for a long time yet unless major funding is given. They arent good but they are functional and do the job.

 

[MCR247]

As an ex-pacer hater, I have to congratulate Northern Rail on their latest refurbs. Decent seats, nice ambience. If they go through the fleet like a prawn vindaloo and get rid of the bus and Merseyrail type seats for the rest of them, the Pacers will be fine for a long time to come. Lack of tables is still a bit of a pain. If they could include some seat-back ones for the next lot it would help.

They are only replacing the moquette on the seats aren't they :?

 

[yorksrob]

They are only replacing the moquette on the seats aren't they :?

I noticed that some of the bus seat ones have just been re-upholstered, which seems to be a missed opportunity. But there are a couple over here with what look like new "proper" seats.

 

[northwichcat]

To be honest, I'd expect people to have some sort of neck strain after an emergency stop on any type of train. Still doesn't mean to say that Pacers are unsafe.

A train that runs more smoothly even one older than a Pacer such as a 507 or 508 would reduce the chance of injury, as would high back seating.
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A couple of years ago someone took a reasonably recent double decker under the arch bridge ( B284 Hook Road in Epsom ) and forgot to move into the middle of the road to do so.

On my way home from work I walked under that bridge past the newly converted open top bus, which was just beyond the bridge towards the A24 East Street while the entire roof was on the road on the other side of the bridge...

You're talking about a bus being converted in to an open top bus. I was talking about the Leyland bus being converted to two single deckers with one not having a floor or wheels.
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How many coach crashes are there a year? How many pacer crashes?

While I'm not arguing that trains aren't safer than coaches I think National Express alone have more coaches than Northern, FGW and ATW combined have Pacers, so that wouldn't be a good comparison. Also, some coach crashes also involve European left hand drive coaches, while we don't have trains in the UK that aren't intended for UK operation.

 

[Greenback]

I'm not comparing Pacers with coaches. I'm saying that there are a huge number off actors that could cause a road crash involving a coach. A lot of these factors are not present on the railway. I can't remember who first compared coaches and Pacers on this thread, and I can't be bothered to check, but I suspect it was a bit of a distraction to the real issues!

The whole idea that Pacers are somehow unsafe is ridiculous. If any trains crash head on at speed there are going to be casualties. That is why there are so many safety systems that reduce the chances of this happening in the first place. The risk can never entirely be eliminated, though.

 

[142094]

A train that runs more smoothly even one older than a Pacer such as a 507 or 508 would reduce the chance of injury, as would high back seating.

Not many Pacers still have the original bus-style seating, although some do have the Merseyrail ones the vast majority in the Newcastle area have the Richmond seating installed under Northern Spirit. I don't see how the smoothness of the ride effects the chance of neck injury, the rapid deacceleration due to the emergency brakes would cause it on probably all trains anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

Not many Pacers still have the original bus-style seating

Not many?! Out of Northern's 142 (including ones subleased to FGW) there are 29 out of 79 with high back seating, which are mainly in the North East and Yorkshire. The rest, which are mainly in the Manchester, Liverpool and Preston areas, have either the original bus style seats or the Merseytravel low back seats.

 

[PR1Berske]

As an ex-pacer hater, I have to congratulate Northern Rail on their latest refurbs. Decent seats, nice ambience. If they go through the fleet like a prawn vindaloo and get rid of the bus and Merseyrail type seats for the rest of them, the Pacers will be fine for a long time to come. Lack of tables is still a bit of a pain. If they could include some seat-back ones for the next lot it would help.

The Merseyrail bone shakers, memory evoking as they are, made my commute into work very hard indeed! Some runs first thing in the morning on the East Lancs Line could have been the opening sequence to a contemporary 1980s documentary =!

I'm lucky/luckier to have moved offices. This morning I was blessed (?) with a Northern Rail .....something....can't remember....There seemed to have been a relic of a buffet between carriages, that was odd....
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Not many?! Out of Northern's 142 (including ones subleased to FGW) there are 29 out of 79 with high back seating, which are mainly in the North East and Yorkshire. The rest, which are mainly in the Manchester, Liverpool and Preston areas, have either the original bus style seats or the Merseytravel low back seats.

There's certainly a lot of them about. My mate text me yesterday on his post-**** up trail from Preston to Blackpool South. His hangover was made a lot worse by the ancient seats he was forced to suffer on the way =!