Conductors or Guards?

[FormerBritInMe]

Been away from this site for a while and upon returning I see references to the term "conductor" for what used to be called a "guard". At least I assume it is another term for the same position, as we would refer to that position on this side of the pond. Is this something new, an import from North America? Will we see Drivers being referred to as Engineers soon?

Interestingly enough in Boston USA where I grew up the conductors on the metro (referred to as "the T" here) were always referred to as "guards". Unfortunately that position no longer exists as the last line went to DOO a few years ago.

Maybe I'm just an old fuddy duddy with my memories of guards giving the right away with his whistle and flag as the last of the carriage doors slammed shut and a toot of the whistle from the tank engine as the train started out. Guess I need to get with the times.

 

[LowLevel]

Guard is a rule book role. Conductor is a job title. Conductors have various duties including the traditional role of the guard, which quite often wasn't a customer facing role.

Nothing new either, there have been Conductor Guards on British Railways for more than 50 years.

British Rail formally ceased to have guard as a job title in the 1980s when Trainman, Conductor and Senior Conductor were introduced instead to reflect the different roles.

South West Trains subsequently reintroduced it as Guard and Commercial Guard, as did GNER amongst a plethora of other daft names before VTEC finally settled on Train Manager.

 

[Spartacus]

Different companies seem to use different terminology for the same role, and occasionally use the same term for different roles. Guard/Conductor/Train Manager's a common example of this. Personally I prefer to use the term 'guard' in anything that might have wider viewership as guard's in the rule book both conductor and train manager can be ambiguous and refer to different roles, a conductor can also be, and traditionally was, a route conductor, and a train manager, depending on company, could be a driver, guard, or on board manager.

 

[matacaster]

Guard seems fine to me, even if it includes guarding from fare evasion. Simple and gives infrequent travellers reassurance.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

Thanks for all the responses.

 

[davetheguard]

Guard seems fine to me too, even though it's a while since I waved my green flag for the last time!

 

[yorkie]

Guards may or may not check or issue tickets; it wouldn't make any sense to call a Merseyrail or SWR guard a conductor.

Conversely, the staff who check tickets on Southeastern High Speed and various GTR / Scotrail services which are operated by the driver, could perhaps be referred to as "conductors" (though that isn't actually the correct job title) but are not Guards.

A [Senior] Conductor is a job title given to Guards at some companies, where a big part of the role is checking tickets. It wouldn't be used for a Guard who doesn't check tickets. It also tends not to be used at InterCity TOCs were there are multiple customer facing staff on the train, including catering staff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the term isn't a US one specifically - it is used in the UK for trams, and was used for buses (only would be now if you hired a Routemaster privately as all UK service buses are driver operated).

 

[Ashley Hill]

We’ve got conductors and train managers at my TOC and yet my boss is a Guards manager. Therefore I am a Guard and announce myself as such!

 

[43066]

Guard is a rule book role. Conductor is a job title. Conductors have various duties including the traditional role of the guard, which quite often wasn't a customer facing role.

Nothing new either, there have been Conductor Guards on British Railways for more than 50 years.

British Rail formally ceased to have guard as a job title in the 1980s when Trainman, Conductor and Senior Conductor were introduced instead to reflect the different roles.

South West Trains subsequently reintroduced it as Guard and Commercial Guard, as did GNER amongst a plethora of other daft names before VTEC finally settled on Train Manager.

I understood the reason for the difference in title between “senior conductors*” on the local side and “train managers” on the intercity side is that a “TM” typically has another member of staff (a customer host) to “manage”?

As you say it means nothing in practice and both are generally referred to as guards internally.

*why it’s “senior” conductor is a bit of a mystery as I’ve yet to meet a junior conductor! I suppose it just sounds better than plain old “conductor”.

 

[davetheguard]

*why it’s “senior” conductor is a bit of a mystery as I’ve yet to meet a junior conductor! I suppose it just sounds better than plain old “conductor”.

If I remember correctly, in the days of Sectorisation on B.R., on Network SouthEast at least, the grade of Senior Conductor was introduced as a "step up" from Conductor. At the time, Senior Conductors were trained in and could issue Penalty Fares, while Conductors couldn't.

 

[LowLevel]

I understood the reason for the difference in title between “senior conductors*” on the local side and “train managers” on the intercity side is that a “TM” typically has another member of staff (a customer host) to “manage”?

As you say it means nothing in practice and both are generally referred to as guards internally.

*why it’s “senior” conductor is a bit of a mystery as I’ve yet to meet a junior conductor! I suppose it just sounds better than plain old “conductor”.

Under BR with a few exceptions on NSE and perhaps ScotRail, Regional Railways and NSE guards were conductors and Intercity were senior conductors. National Express Group did a pay deal with it's conductors in the early days which saw them regraded to senior conductors with the associated pay rise at Central Trains and Silverlink, whereas at Anglia they never did away with the two job titles foe the local and Intercity guards. Wales and Borders subsequently took over some Central Trains depots and to this day TfW has a small number of Senior Conductors at the Cambrian depots and Shrewsbury.

Most IC operators renamed their Senior Conductors as train managers having dispensed with some of the more senior catering roles and passed on that side of things to the guard.

 

[43066]

If I remember correctly, in the days of Sectorisation on B.R., on Network SouthEast at least, the grade of Senior Conductor was introduced as a "step up" from Conductor. At the time, Senior Conductors were trained in and could issue Penalty Fares, while Conductors couldn't.

Under BR with a few exceptions on NSE and perhaps ScotRail, Regional Railways and NSE guards were conductors and Intercity were senior conductors. National Express Group did a pay deal with it's conductors in the early days which saw them regraded to senior conductors with the associated pay rise at Central Trains and Silverlink, whereas at Anglia they never did away with the two job titles foe the local and Intercity guards. Wales and Borders subsequently took over some Central Trains depots and to this day TfW has a small number of Senior Conductors at the Cambrian depots and Shrewsbury.

Most IC operators renamed their Senior Conductors as train managers having dispensed with some of the more senior catering roles and passed on that side of things to the guard.

Excellent insight - thanks both!

 

[Taunton]

And the term isn't a US one specifically - it is used in the UK for trams, and was used for buses

It was a particular feature around Manchester that old-time buses were, quite universally by everyone, described as having guards rather than conductors. "The bus guard". Apparently dated back to street tramway days as well.

 

[43066]

It was a particular feature around Manchester that old-time buses were, quite universally by everyone, described as having guards rather than conductors. "The bus guard". Apparently dated back to street tramway days as well.

The buses in London could do with guards (preferably of the armed variety) nowadays, given some of the behaviour that goes on!

 

[bishdunster]

As an oldie my definition of a conductor would be the person who issues tickets on a bus or someone who accompanies a train driver over a route the driver is not familliar with.

 

[michael74]

I am a conductor one day as I move up the links from local to long distance services I may become a train manager but more often than not I refer to myself on PA calls as the Guard.

 

[Recessio]

I've noticed here on Southern, that on the Seaford line with 313s where you can buy your ticket on-board, the staff announce themselves as guards. But on most (all?) other Southern routes, it's always "on-board supervisor" rather than guard or conductor.

 

[Urban Gateline]

I've noticed here on Southern, that on the Seaford line with 313s where you can buy your ticket on-board, the staff announce themselves as guards. But on most (all?) other Southern routes, it's always "on-board supervisor" rather than guard or conductor.

That's right, and there is a difference in the roles as the Southern Conductors (Guards) are safety critical and dispatch their train at Stations, whereas the Onboard Supervisors are just there for customer service and revenue collection.

 

[Recessio]

That's right, and there is a difference in the roles as the Southern Conductors (Guards) are safety critical and dispatch their train at Stations, whereas the Onboard Supervisors are just there for customer service and revenue collection.

By "dispatch", am I correct in saying this means the guard closes the doors and signals the Right Away? Does this not happen on OBS routes?

 

[Urban Gateline]

By "dispatch", am I correct in saying this means the guard closes the doors and signals the Right Away? Does this not happen on OBS routes?

That's correct for the first part. The OBS doesn't get involved with the dispatch process at all, that is all down to the driver on class 377/387 except for the Clapham Junction to Watford Junction route (but then those are Conductors/Guards and not OBS)

 

[Sorcerer]

Does anyone think that there should be an industry standard title for the role or would it be too variable between operators? If I had to pick one title, I'd argue that Train Manager is the best suited since they are directly managing the on board experience of the train, but would that work in every situation? For a TOC it might, but for an FOC probably much less so.

 

[43066]

Does anyone think that there should be an industry standard title for the role or would it be too variable between operators? If I had to pick one title, I'd argue that Train Manager is the best suited since they are directly managing the on board experience of the train, but would that work in every situation? For a TOC it might, but for an FOC probably much less so.

Do FOCs still have guards (whatever their title)? I thought they’d gone out with brake vans and unfitted wagons!

 

[Sorcerer]

Do FOCs still have guards (whatever their title)? I thought they’d gone out with brake vans and unfitted wagons!

To be honest, I didn't even know they ever had guards in the first place until a Virgin driver once told me that they started out as a guard for an FOC.

 

[43066]

To be honest, I didn't even know they ever had guards in the first place until a Virgin driver once told me that they started out as a guard for an FOC.

Thinking about it one of my rules instructors (since retired) was also a freight guard in the 80s, so it did continue beyond the era of brake vans which had long gone by then.

 

[Sorcerer]

Thinking about it one of my rules instructors (since retired) was also a freight guard in the 80s, so it did continue beyond the era of brake vans which had long gone by then.

I'm afraid my knowledge on that is somewhat limited so I think it'll have to be left to one of the more knowledgeable forum members to give us the facts on that.

 

[Rescars]

As an oldie my definition of a conductor would be the person who issues tickets on a bus or someone who accompanies a train driver over a route the driver is not familliar with.

Just to add to the confusion, back in the era of the Pullman Car Co, the most senior member of the catering staff was the Conductor.

 

[Gloster]

Thinking about it one of my rules instructors (since retired) was also a freight guard in the 80s, so it did continue beyond the era of brake vans which had long gone by then.

Brake vans lasted into the 1990s: there were still 200 in revenue stock at the beginning of 1990. (Source: Eric Gent’s HMRS book.)

 

[Flange Squeal]

Do FOCs still have guards (whatever their title)? I thought they’d gone out with brake vans and unfitted wagons!

Some FOC job titles confuse matters even further, with GB Railfreight referring to their drivers as ‘Train Managers’!

 

[43066]

Brake vans lasted into the 1990s: there were still 200 in revenue stock at the beginning of 1990. (Source: Eric Gent’s HMRS book.)

I shouldn’t be surprised, but also sort of glad it carried on as long as it did.

The other day I had to give one long and one short blast on the horn to tell the Bobby which way I was heading, he could have stopped me and queried had I not done so. I gave him a wave in his Hornby style absolute block signal box… In a London bound 125mph capable class 1 express train (bonus points if anyone can guess the location?).

I just love it, long may it continue…