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Conductor Role Hull

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John Hull

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ive just completed an online assessment with Northern, two sections one based around reading passages of text and the other numerical.

Really struggled with the numerical assessment and didn’t manage to complete it in the given time. Even having done the practise tests and being educated to degree level (albeit not in mathematical subject.)

How much emphasis do you think they will put on this?
My CV is strong, having worked in public facing roles all my life at a high level.

I have emailed the recruitment department explaining the assessments have been completed and admitting my struggles with the numerical assessment and explained that I hope the selection panel will be able to see from my CV and experience that i believe I will bring some great assets to the role on offer.
 
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Ducatist4

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You are just one of hundreds who will be going after this job. It’s harsh to say but I think they rely heavily on the tests to get the numbers down to something a bit more manageable before they start looking at anything in great detail.
 

ainsworth74

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Yes I'd share the same view. These sort of assessments are used to sift candidates before they ever get to full consideration. If you've got hundreds of applicants for one job you're not going to consider all of them. You're going to consider the ones that hit whatever passmark you set. So I'm sorry to say that it's quite possible that your CV will never be read by a selection panel.
 

Adlenviro

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Your obviously educated. What sort of things did the test have in for you to struggle.
 

Stigy

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I agree with what others have posted. It may sound harsh, but unfortunately it’s joust one way of sifting candidates. If it’s a numerical reasoning test I feel your pain. I’ve ALWAYS struggled with them. I’m not bad at maths as such, but throw in something about 17% of the gross turnover of company A with the net profit of company B and it’s straight over my head.
 

tommo1097

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Yeh i totally agree and know factually that the scores are a way to sift the applicants, they get hundreds!!
 

feaky4

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They are hard I asked a few people a question from it and only 1 person seemed to have got it correct its wierd they have have a hard test just for a conductor role but suppose it's one of the easiest ways to lower the numbers
 

C J Snarzell

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I appreciate this is hard to take and probably somewhat upsetting but like another forum member has stated if your scores have not reached a sufficient mark for the online test the HR people are unlikely to take your application further.

Theses people are inundated with hundreds of applications for driver and conductor vacancies every week and they simple do not have the time to go through every application. I believe the tests are designed to wittle down the number of candidates before they begin selection.

One thing I will say is - I applied for a trainee conductor role myself back in April and I wasn't even invited to do the online test! I submitted my CV and cover letter and got the rejection e-mail two weeks later. I still think my slip up was not downloading the details of my references or referees which is on the first page of the application on the DB website. The drop down box for downloading documents is marked as 'optional' but I would assume that if you are one of ten applicants who hadn't submitted referee details then HR are going to reject your application first before the other nine!

I raised this in another thread and I was told that HRs use a computerised screening system for incoming applications and these have a way of picking up on spelling, grammar and layout. I can only speak for my own application but I remember being asked three questions on situations that are customer service based. I suspect the answers you give are screened for 'buzz' words and key phrases that potential employers love to hear.

At least you made it one step further than my myself!!! Finally, I will say is that it is hard and quite frustrating but you are not on your own.
 

craigybagel

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ive just completed an online assessment with Northern, two sections one based around reading passages of text and the other numerical.

Really struggled with the numerical assessment and didn’t manage to complete it in the given time. Even having done the practise tests and being educated to degree level (albeit not in mathematical subject.)

How much emphasis do you think they will put on this?
My CV is strong, having worked in public facing roles all my life at a high level.

I have emailed the recruitment department explaining the assessments have been completed and admitting my struggles with the numerical assessment and explained that I hope the selection panel will be able to see from my CV and experience that i believe I will bring some great assets to the role on offer.

Unfortunately I suspect if thy year went as badly for you as you fear the recruitment team won't even see your CV or your explanation. The computer will dump it straight into the reject pile along with hundreds of others.

Hopefully though it's gone better then you think! Most people think they've had a disaster when actually they've done ok, and hopefully you're one of them.

They are hard I asked a few people a question from it and only 1 person seemed to have got it correct its wierd they have have a hard test just for a conductor role but suppose it's one of the easiest ways to lower the numbers

"Just for a conductor role"? Good luck getting any further in the process with that attitude!

Also, I'm not sure why you're surprised the tests are hard. The role is hard. It really isn't a job that just anybody can do.
 

Stigy

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Unfortunately I suspect if thy year went as badly for you as you fear the recruitment team won't even see your CV or your explanation. The computer will dump it straight into the reject pile along with hundreds of others.

Hopefully though it's gone better then you think! Most people think they've had a disaster when actually they've done ok, and hopefully you're one of them.
Agreed. Certainly speaking from experience of at least one TOC, the application forms aren’t seen by anyone unless the candidates pass the initial online assessments. The online assessments are all graded and sifted by computer and a human doesn’t see them. Humans only get involved once those at the online assessments who meet the standard are sifted and sorted.
 

ainsworth74

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Also, I'm not sure why you're surprised the tests are hard.

I think the only complaint I've had with tests like these is that feel like they happen in the wrong place in the process. Whenever I've applied for a job that involved testing like this they happened after you've spent potentially multiple hours filling in the application form and completing a personal statement (i.e. the bit where you relate skills/experience to the person specification). It's therefore a bit galling to have wasted hours on an application and then get rejected automatically. It would be far more preferable if organisations using such methods to sift took your personal details at stage one, did the assessments as stage two and then as stage three invited only those who had passed the assessments to spend hours on their personal statements. I can't particularly think of any downsides for the recruiting organisation apart from it might take a bit longer as you'd need to allow a little bit of time for those that passed to complete their statements but it's not as if, on the railway anyway, that recruitment is a quick process! :lol:
 

C J Snarzell

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ainsworth74

You've hit the nail on the head with your online test experience.

I've been applying for jobs outside the rail industry just to throw hats in various rings. The Civil Service Jobs website advertised jobs for organisations in the public sector.

I applied for a job with the Charity Commission back in May and I had to provide four skill based examples that are up to 250 words each. This was followed by a personal statement in which you have to evidence skills and why you are suited to the job. You are allowed 1200 words for this. I spent hours draughting my application and making sure I used as many words to reach the maximum but of course ensuring the quality of my examples was perfert.

Once the application is completed and submitted you are then invited to complete a online test. The test I had to do was a series of questions where your answers are either one of three - true, false or cannot say. The questions are really off the wall subjects and the topic of the questions ranged from astronomy, the French fashion industry, a rare South American Fruit and mineral mining in the 1800s. I took part in the practice questions before hand before taking the actual test. I thought I did alright but then I got an automatic e-mail saying I had failed the test and my whole application was completely rejected.

I then applied for an admin role with the Ministry of Defence and they too use the same test as the Charity Commission. Again I failed that test after spending hours compiling my application.

To say I was completely p**sed off was a understatement after all the time an effort I put in for both applications. Like you said I'm sure they could change the application process and maybe get candidates to take part in a test prior to completing the actual application form!
 

feaky4

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Just for a conductor role"? Good luck getting any further in the process with that attitude!

Also, I'm not sure why you're surprised the tests are hard. The role is hard. It really isn't a job that just anybody can do.

I'm not here to disrespect but its stupidly hard and has nothing to do with how good of a conductor you'll make I even showed the pharmacist I work with and she has no idea with those sorts of questions and shes stupidly smart. And with some of the conductors iv experienced alot I dont see how they did maybe help from some one else as they will never find out??
 

craigybagel

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I think the only complaint I've had with tests like these is that feel like they happen in the wrong place in the process. Whenever I've applied for a job that involved testing like this they happened after you've spent potentially multiple hours filling in the application form and completing a personal statement (i.e. the bit where you relate skills/experience to the person specification). It's therefore a bit galling to have wasted hours on an application and then get rejected automatically. It would be far more preferable if organisations using such methods to sift took your personal details at stage one, did the assessments as stage two and then as stage three invited only those who had passed the assessments to spend hours on their personal statements. I can't particularly think of any downsides for the recruiting organisation apart from it might take a bit longer as you'd need to allow a little bit of time for those that passed to complete their statements but it's not as if, on the railway anyway, that recruitment is a quick process! :lol:

I guess the issue with that is that rather then having recruitment take longer (and as you rightly pointed out, it already often takes a long time!) it's more likely it would just result in a much lower cut off point in terms of the maximum number of applications received before the job is pulled from the website. There is only a finite number of recruitment staff with a finite amount of time to sort through applications. Unless you increased these as well (which of course would cost money) you'd still end up with only a small amount of people getting through, but now you'd be sifting through a much smaller group, so potentially you'd have fewer decent applicants. I do understand your frustration, but I suspect if the sift was done manually the result would be a lot of frustrated people who didn't submit their application on time. These jobs often close after 2 or 3 days even now - with a manual sift that time might be measured in hours!

You also need to ask the question of the TOCs - is the current system working? From what I've seen (and I'm speaking as a former conductor and also a minder for trainee conductors), most of the new conductors that are coming through, both at my own TOC and at others are of a very high standard indeed.

I'm not here to disrespect but its stupidly hard and has nothing to do with how good of a conductor you'll make I even showed the pharmacist I work with and she has no idea with those sorts of questions and shes stupidly smart. And with some of the conductors iv experienced alot I dont see how they did maybe help from some one else as they will never find out??

I've no doubt your pharmacist friend is very intelligent but I would question what they know about the guards role? These tests aren't just designed to measure intelligence (and I certainly wouldn't consider myself more intelligent then the average pharmacist!) but all kinds of suitabilities towards the role. In terms of maths, at Northern for example you're selling a lot of small value tickets, which means doing a lot of mental arithmetic in a short amount of time whilst also dealing with all the other physical and mental demands of the job.

And yes, I'm sure that a lot of the old hands around now would never be able to get through the recruitment process today, that's true. But if you look at the standard of many of the old hands, versus the standards of many of the new ones, I know which recruitment system I think is more successful on average.....
 

ainsworth74

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There is only a finite number of recruitment staff with a finite amount of time to sort through applications. Unless you increased these as well (which of course would cost money) you'd still end up with only a small amount of people getting through, but now you'd be sifting through a much smaller group, so potentially you'd have fewer decent applicants. I do understand your frustration, but I suspect if the sift was done manually the result would be a lot of frustrated people who didn't submit their application on time. These jobs often close after 2 or 3 days even now - with a manual sift that time might be measured in hours!

I'm not suggesting they do a manual sift at any point other than when they already do it anyway. Simply that they don't ask anyone to fill in a personal statement until they've been through the automated sift which currently happens after a potential applicant has spent hours filling in an application form.

Have them fill in a form with their basic personal details then send everyone that applies an email with a link to the tests and then have the computer bin anyone that doesn't meet your criteria. Anyone who does then gets a second email congratulating them and asking them to submit their personal statement (or fill in part 2 of the application form, however you want to phrase it).

You also need to ask the question of the TOCs - is the current system working? From what I've seen (and I'm speaking as a former conductor and also a minder for trainee conductors), most of the new conductors that are coming through, both at my own TOC and at others are of a very high standard indeed.

Oh yeah, I'm purely in fantasy land here. Clearly it works for the companies that use such a system so they're hardly likely to change it to make it more applicant friendly! :lol:
 

craigybagel

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I'm not suggesting they do a manual sift at any point other than when they already do it anyway. Simply that they don't ask anyone to fill in a personal statement until they've been through the automated sift which currently happens after a potential applicant has spent hours filling in an application form.

Have them fill in a form with their basic personal details then send everyone that applies an email with a link to the tests and then have the computer bin anyone that doesn't meet your criteria. Anyone who does then gets a second email congratulating them and asking them to submit their personal statement (or fill in part 2 of the application form, however you want to phrase it).

My apologies for misunderstanding you! Are you suggesting two sifts then - one after the aptitude tests, and then for those successful at that stage another sift of the personal statements?
 

ainsworth74

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Are you suggesting two sifts then - one after the aptitude tests, and then for those successful at that stage another sift of the personal statements?
Pretty much. The automated sift (based on the test where the computer says either "yes!" or "no!") and then the sift of the fully completed applications (i.e. personal statements, CVs, etc). Which, if my understanding of the current process is correct, is no different to now. You're just only asking those that pass the first automated sift to provide all the extra info that the second human sift uses unlike at present where everyone has to provide all the information even though only those that pass the automated tests will ever have that info looked at.
 

craigybagel

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Pretty much. The automated sift (based on the test where the computer says either "yes!" or "no!") and then the sift of the fully completed applications (i.e. personal statements, CVs, etc). Which, if my understanding of the current process is correct, is no different to now. You're just only asking those that pass the first automated sift to provide all the extra info that the second human sift uses unlike at present where everyone has to provide all the information even though only those that pass the automated tests will ever have that info looked at.

I guess that's a fair point. Although, is the second sift definitely done by a human, and as an actual second sift? Could it be that the computer also sifts the personal statements? I'm sure at some TOCs it eliminates all those that don't reach a minimum word count - and I've heard it suggested it looks for certain words to get mentioned as well. I could be wrong you, it's all witchcraft to me!

But yes, I can see why it's frustrating at present that everyone has to do both even though they may have already doomed themselves to failure in the first part.

I'm quite grateful that the first step at my own TOC for both guard and driver roles is one long statement and nothing else. It keeps things simple - even if it did frustrate me that it took 3 times for me to get through the sift for the latter role....
 
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