You obviously aren't aware of my personal views on the matter . Nor seen me defend human rights on here before .
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Conductor punched at Blackpool South Wed 14 Jan
- Thread starter AndyPJG
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You obviously aren't aware of my personal views on the matter . Nor seen me defend human rights on here before .
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PermitToTravel
Established Member
Without wishing to drag a serious thread too far off the rails, no I'm not aware of your personal views and haven't seen you doing that. You've every right to make whatever jokes you want, but I was pointing out that comments like that are actively unhelpful for the public image of human rights.
only if you take comments like that seriously which as they where intended as a joke they are not meant to be taken seriously .
Either way like it or lump it its been said now .
crewmeal
Member
You'll be lucky if they did the court of human rights would be down on them like a ton of s***e.
Human rights should only apply to those who respect other people's human rights!
Back on topic, I hope the guard makes a speedy recovery and the scummy piece of sh#t is caught.
Just because one person misses the train doesn't mean the train left early, it is far more likely the scummer was late.
Back on topic, I hope the guard makes a speedy recovery and the scummy piece of sh#t is caught.
Just because one person misses the train doesn't mean the train left early, it is far more likely the scummer was late.
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I used the word 'scrote' liberally. If I wanted my post to be blocked I would have used the word I had in mind.
As for human rights issues, I have the human right not to be punched by an angry scrote.
I hope my distant colleague did not suffer any injury while simply being at work.
As for human rights issues, I have the human right not to be punched by an angry scrote.
I hope my distant colleague did not suffer any injury while simply being at work.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Though early running is sloppy in the extreme, and if found to be the case the member of staff should be subject to severe disciplinary action, assault or no. There is no reason the doors should be closed one second earlier than the TOC's published time (usually 30 seconds other than London termini).
Equally, the passenger should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, as there is no excuse for violence.
Two wrongs...
Neil
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CockneySparrow
Member
Slightly off topic but Cambridge to Liverpool Street is a little bit like that as well
Severe disciplinary action . Id love to see that ,
As another guard on this thread has pointed out , it does happen from time to time we've all misread a docket , we've all not looked and not realized its an STP and your waiting somewhere for longer than usual . There have even been times when the docket has been wrong and had there not been a CIS or had I discounted the CIS I would have run early . Theres even the case that the watch that I wear supplied by the company and am supposed to use as the correct time when working a train disagrees with the CIS .
The only time id back anything other than an informal reminder from your manager to check your watch before you go is if it was a regular issue with one particular member of traincrew .
313103
Established Member
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So have we found out if the train actually left early? Yes or No will do.
Not to detract from the seriousness of this thread, personally being a conductor who has been physically assaulted and all that (not as bad as this but still...)
But....
PermitToTravel
Established Member
TRUST won't say as it stopped before moving into the next berth - I guess the best bet for finding out is waiting until the trial.
Elecman
Established Member
There are no berths until the train gets to Moss Side crossing, and I'm not sure that is even reported, the first reporting point may well be the annunciation berth for Kirkham Junction
Who in their right mind arrives for a train within 1 minute of the departure time? We cannot all wear an accurate timepiece set to railways time.
I prefer to arrive well before a train is due to allow for differences in my watch (a Rolex before you ask) to the train operators time.
I prefer to arrive well before a train is due to allow for differences in my watch (a Rolex before you ask) to the train operators time.
Happens quite frequently at my local station (suburban Glasgow) as well as at Glasgow Central during rush hour. I live five minutes away from my local station and leave just in time to make the train.
Once or twice it has left early by up to a minute. Certainly a poor performance by the TOC on these occasions, but these things happen and definitely shouldn't result in violence.
Quite right and the posters that used to be on Scotrail trains hit the point home hard and I Quote
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I still think it is asking a bit much for trains to be within 60 seconds of the departure time most people do not have an accurate timepiece to be able to arrive so accurately for a train.
I include myself a Rolex despite its reputation is not as accurate as a modern electronic timepiece which has been accurately set to a time signal. I have two clocks in the house allegedly coordinated with a master clock somewhere in Germany and they even differ, modern electronics i suppose
Still no excuse for violence to someone doing their job though
I include myself a Rolex despite its reputation is not as accurate as a modern electronic timepiece which has been accurately set to a time signal. I have two clocks in the house allegedly coordinated with a master clock somewhere in Germany and they even differ, modern electronics i suppose
Still no excuse for violence to someone doing their job though
I understand people will run late from time to time, but you'd hope that passengers would arrive sooner than 1 minute before departure, especially on a line that gets one train every two hours. (And as Blackpool South is a terminus, the train would've probably been sitting at the platform for a few minutes anyway beforehand)
Although we don't know why the commuter got to the station literally at/ just before departure time, or why he was so desperate to board the service, there is no excuse to be physically or verbally abusive to rail staff (or anyone for that matter) - According to RTT, trains do very frequently leave their origin stations 1 minute early. Whether this is wrong or not is another matter, but doors closing 30 or 40 seconds before departure time is probably one of the main factors.
Maybe if the abuser had been reasonable with the guard he would have let him get on? Most people serving the public are reasonable if you treat them like human beings instead of abusing them because you think they are being obstructive, then again if the guard got it wrong and the passenger got hurt while boarding it would be the guards fault so you cannot Blaim the guard.
I am not an employee of the TOC's so do not know the implications of doing a passenger a favour and letting him on after I have given the driver permission to go, I would not risk my job and pension to let a passenger who cannot read a watch onto a train because he is late.
I am not an employee of the TOC's so do not know the implications of doing a passenger a favour and letting him on after I have given the driver permission to go, I would not risk my job and pension to let a passenger who cannot read a watch onto a train because he is late.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The great majority of railway stations these days have a clock, usually on the PIS but possibly elsewhere, which is I believe fed by the Rugby atomic clock (but it almost doesn't matter what it is fed by).
Trains should not be departing before the appointed time per this clock, and doors should not close until the advertised time before that, and not one second earlier.
And it should be a big part of a railwayman's professionalism to ensure this at all times.
The passenger's watch is of course their issue (though with people using mobiles these days these are very accurate, as they obtain time from the Internet). But the railway can at the very least ensure it runs to its own definition of the correct time.
Again, of course, absolutely no excuse for assault. But certainly a valid reason for a (polite, verbal or written) complaint, and IMO if the train did depart early and the resulting delay was sufficient, for Delay Repay to be paid, IMO.
Neil
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Indeed so, and that the passenger is caught and prosecuted.
Neil
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I would be happy to see "the train was cancelled due to an assault on a member of staff by a passenger". If they say that, I'd imagine more people would be understanding and more cross with the passenger. It may even protect staff from further issues because people wouldn't be annoyed with the railway (as much - some people are just unreasonable).
Neil
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Neither trains leaving early nor assault are acceptable (with the ease of doing so via Twitter these days I tend to report any instance of early running I notice while travelling, whether it directly affects me or not). Clearly assault is vastly less acceptable than trains leaving early, however neither should occur.
Neil
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Yes, I'm completely serious. Late running can sometimes not be avoided. Early running is always avoidable, by the simple act of actively checking the correct departure time for your train at every station against a correctly-set watch or clock before pressing "close doors".
Though admittedly buses are *far* worse for this - "waiting for time" seems not to be in the vocabulary of many UK bus drivers. Though with GPS tracking the situation is improving, certainly in Milton Keynes where early running of over 10 minutes was common on certain evening services prior to the introduction of GPS tracking, at which point it magically ceased.
Neil
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LOL god love this being told how to do your job by someone who has no idea .
Yes as an Ideal train crew dont plan to run early , and if it was a recurring issue then it needs looking at . But as a one off it happens to the best of us .
I do however agree if early running has put you into delay repay territory this is only fair that you should be compensated .
I can think of at least half a dozen stations I work through where there is not a clock that I can see from the position I usually work my train from or indeed from any other position for that matter ,there might be clocks at entrances or in station buildings but then I cant see them from the platform which is why I am issued with a watch that is radio controlled and expected to use that to keep time .
I dont actually know how accurate the PIS clocks are , some of them are bang on with my watch and some of them are a minute or two out so I tend not to rely on them .
early running is not always avoidable by checking the time of departure . As I pointed out I remember an occasion when my diagram said I departed station X at xx:20 however the PIS said that the service departed at xx:22 . Now had I not bothered checking the PIS which I am under no obligation to do because my company issued radio controlled watch is what I am to use for time then I would have run early through no fault of my own .
Yes as an Ideal train crew dont plan to run early , and if it was a recurring issue then it needs looking at . But as a one off it happens to the best of us .
I do however agree if early running has put you into delay repay territory this is only fair that you should be compensated .
I can think of at least half a dozen stations I work through where there is not a clock that I can see from the position I usually work my train from or indeed from any other position for that matter ,there might be clocks at entrances or in station buildings but then I cant see them from the platform which is why I am issued with a watch that is radio controlled and expected to use that to keep time .
I dont actually know how accurate the PIS clocks are , some of them are bang on with my watch and some of them are a minute or two out so I tend not to rely on them .
early running is not always avoidable by checking the time of departure . As I pointed out I remember an occasion when my diagram said I departed station X at xx:20 however the PIS said that the service departed at xx:22 . Now had I not bothered checking the PIS which I am under no obligation to do because my company issued radio controlled watch is what I am to use for time then I would have run early through no fault of my own .
PermitToTravel
Established Member
After having apparently unsafely stopped a train that had departed? I doubt it
If the conductor did hear a loud bang and was unsure of its origin , or indeed did see a passenger in contact with or banging on the side of the train as it was departing the correct procedure is to stop the train
If however you are rolling out of a station and you see a runner at the other end of the platform and decide to stop the train to let them on you are right in suspecting it could lead to a tea and biscuits chat with your manager
PermitToTravel
Established Member
Is it more acceptable if the driver does it?
My understanding is that its not any more acceptable if a driver does it , but then youd actually have to ask a driver about what would happen in that instance .
When on SWT I used to run early quite a lot during the morning rush hour, in fact we were allowed to run (slightly) early from Wimbledon inwards to Waterloo, this was to try and keep the (very full) trains moving, there is no point sitting in the platform if the train is already full, get it out the way so the next one can move in and pick up some of those who couldnt get on the first train.
So as has been asked before, did the train leave early and if it did by whose timepiece?
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Not the drivers decision, once the driver receives the train ready to start signal from the guard, the train has officially left!
PermitToTravel
Established Member
The only way to tell is from the CCTV or the train's OTMR. I doubt anyone here knows.
Thanks for your answers
Worth mentioning that in France, the SNCF have a rule which says that you have to be on the train two minutes before departure otherwise you are not guaranteed to get on.
It is quite probable that the little *&*(@! in this case was running late, but didn't want to admit it.
Does Blackpool South have CCTV? If so it should be possible to get an image of the man involved and circulate it on posters or online. If he is a regular on that particular train, then the police could be waiting for him, ready to feel his collar, the next time he tries to use it.
I would like the courts to have the power to ban people from the railway in these circumstances if convicted. Then let him ponder how he is going to get to work
It is quite probable that the little *&*(@! in this case was running late, but didn't want to admit it.
Does Blackpool South have CCTV? If so it should be possible to get an image of the man involved and circulate it on posters or online. If he is a regular on that particular train, then the police could be waiting for him, ready to feel his collar, the next time he tries to use it.
I would like the courts to have the power to ban people from the railway in these circumstances if convicted. Then let him ponder how he is going to get to work
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