Conductor left behind

[ANorthernGuard]

There is - although how many guards look at them is debateable. In many cases the doors look as if they have closed shut, but may be slightly open. Also, as you say, if it is the door at the other end of the same carriage as the local door then the light won't go out.

The 1st thing we look at is the Hazard Lights, every guard I know does the same, simple safety and we all do look at the doors for gaps etc. no guard I know would even think about leaving a station without a door properly shut, lost count how many times I have seen an ECS movement with an open local door (it won't effect door interlock etc) if the guard was on a train with an open local door there would be hell to pay!

A local door open on any type of traction is a Door Open in Traffic incident and we get our arses kicked with maybe even points etc.

 

[87015]

Be interesting to see the RAIB report into this one....

Don't think there will be one. Its just one of those things that happens every now and again, its certainly not the first and won't be the last...

 

[jamesst]

That's only a feature on newer trains, I know 377s have it, not sure of any others. Sometimes there might be a need to use the buzzer with the doors open, like the example above of police assistance required.

Yeah thats also the case on 507/508s too,no interlock then the bell wont work.
That hasnt stopped incidents i know of where the guards been left behind!!!

 

[142094]

The 1st thing we look at is the Hazard Lights, every guard I know does the same, simple safety and we all do look at the doors for gaps etc. no guard I know would even think about leaving a station without a door properly shut, lost count how many times I have seen an ECS movement with an open local door (it won't effect door interlock etc) if the guard was on a train with an open local door there would be hell to pay!

A local door open on any type of traction is a Door Open in Traffic incident and we get our arses kicked with maybe even points etc.

Certainly I've never seen a 142 moving off with a door still open, but there is the occasional time where the conductor gives the two buzzes and you hear the driver trying to take power only for one of the doors to be still slightly open (but depends on where the door is for checking the the hazard lights are still lit).

In my experience, especially when travelling up here where you are just about guaranteed a 142, it happens about 5-10 times per year, sometimes on the same train where the door is knackered.

 

[dk1]

In the last few years i can recall 4 occasions when this has happened to NXEA Intercity services. One service managed to depart from an un-scheduled stop at Maryland minus the guard whilst another occured between Manningtree & Ipswich. Both where due to crew mis-communication during service disruption. Another 2 where on departure from Liverpool St due to a faux pas from the despatch staff.

 

[TDK]

Any chance a guard on this forum could describe what the correct procedure is for dealing with a door problem after the "right-away" signal has been given, please? Is there a way to "cancel" the signal?

If the right away signal (2 on the buzzer) has been given and after that interlock is lost the guard must give the stop signal (one on the buzzer) the driver will stop and not move until 2 on the buzzer is received again unless they make a mistake

 

[142094]

If the right away signal (2 on the buzzer) has been given and after that interlock is lost the guard must give the stop signal (one on the buzzer) the driver will stop and not move until 2 on the buzzer is received again unless they make a mistake

You'd be surprised how often this doesn't happen and the driver just takes power and moves off when the interlocking is proven.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Certainly I've never seen a 142 moving off with a door still open, but there is the occasional time where the conductor gives the two buzzes and you hear the driver trying to take power only for one of the doors to be still slightly open (but depends on where the door is for checking the the hazard lights are still lit).

In my experience, especially when travelling up here where you are just about guaranteed a 142, it happens about 5-10 times per year, sometimes on the same train where the door is knackered.

it can only (really happen on a 150) every other type of unit the TIS (Traction interlock switch) would have to be raised for a door to be open in traffic, the train would be de-trained at the first safe place and the train would go ECS to its final destination

 

[O L Leigh]

In the last few years i can recall 4 occasions when this has happened to NXEA Intercity services. One service managed to depart from an un-scheduled stop at Maryland minus the guard whilst another occured between Manningtree & Ipswich. Both where due to crew mis-communication during service disruption. Another 2 where on departure from Liverpool St due to a faux pas from the despatch staff.

Mainline sets don't have a traction interlock circuit and the orange lights only prove that the CDL bolt has dropped, not that the door is closed and the CDL correctly engaged with the door.

O L Leigh

 

[142094]

it can only (really happen on a 150) every other type of unit the TIS (Traction interlock switch) would have to be raised for a door to be open in traffic, the train would be de-trained at the first safe place and the train would go ECS to its final destination

142s seem to be the worst for doors not closing properly - indeed I cannot remember the last time I noticed anything other than a 142 having a problem with the doors (apart from a 144 where the air had to be released and the door locked OOU).

 

[dk1]

Mainline sets don't have a traction interlock circuit and the orange lights only prove that the CDL bolt has dropped, not that the door is closed and the CDL correctly engaged with the door.

O L Leigh

CDL was always the cheap option. Both Liverpool St incidents would not have happened if we still used bell-buzzer when departing this station.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

142s seem to be the worst for doors not closing properly - indeed I cannot remember the last time I noticed anything other than a 142 having a problem with the doors (apart from a 144 where the air had to be released and the door locked OOU).

142's usually we give a helping hand, the most trouble we have with 142's are the waist locks..forever sticking

 

[83G/84D]

This has happenned to a Train Manager at Redruth on voyager type trains. He got off to shut a door that was faulty. He had already given the driver the ready to start signal and after clearing the blockage he got out and closed the door from outside. The driver then got interlock and departed leaving the Train manager on the station! The train was halted at Truro and subsequently cancelled. Mediscreens and investigation I guess!

Yes I heard about that - happened a few months back. Happened at Par before that when an HST left without the guard who had to get a taxi to Bodmin!

 

[Flamingo]

What we get told is if you ever have to leave the train after the RA has been given and you had to stop dispatch for any reason, or buzz up the driver to talk in a situation where the driver is waiting for the RA buzzer, you pull the pascom first, then the train is going nowhere until you reset it.

 

[142094]

142's usually we give a helping hand, the most trouble we have with 142's are the waist locks..forever sticking

I'm surprised that someone hasn't put their foot through the glass before now - some seem to give it a hefty kick.

Was once going down the Durham Coast line where the right hand side door at the front was sticking (so the same thing happened at Newcastle, Sunderland, Hartlepool, Billingham and Thornaby). After Sunderland I offered to sit next to the door and shut it each time instead of the conductor coming down - less fuss for them and I get to my destination quicker.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I'm surprised that someone hasn't put their foot through the glass before now - some seem to give it a hefty kick.

Was once going down the Durham Coast line where the right hand side door at the front was sticking (so the same thing happened at Newcastle, Sunderland, Hartlepool, Billingham and Thornaby). After Sunderland I offered to sit next to the door and shut it each time instead of the conductor coming down - less fuss for them and I get to my destination quicker.

Just a lean onto the door does the trick, no point kicking it, it don't work lol

 

[headshot119]

it can only (really happen on a 150) every other type of unit the TIS (Traction interlock switch) would have to be raised for a door to be open in traffic, the train would be de-trained at the first safe place and the train would go ECS to its final destination

I thought that on a 508 / 507, that the staff door could be opened without the TIS being raised.

 

[185]

Happened to me with a 158. Could not get hazard light out as door near toilet in centre was faulty. Had to close my own local (back) door to see if the light went out when pushed shut. When pushed, interlock activated, brakes came off and driver started driving off!!! I told him it I was going to have a look at it and I'd not even given the berk 2 on the buzzer!

Luckily, just had time to flip the external door butterfly and train screeched to a halt. Stormed up to the front cab......driver says "I'm done when I get to Leeds, I'm not mucking about, I've got a flyer.... always this 158..... making me late....etc"

I could of reported the plonker, but didn't. He's now in Australia anyway

(155s the interlock didn't put the brakes on in 2004 - are they modified now?!)

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I thought that on a 508 / 507, that the staff door could be opened without the TIS being raised.

didn't know there was other type of units that have a local "slam" door without interlock, you live n learn lol

 

[Jock]

Someone mentioned this earlier, regarding 'the guard leaving the train in accordance with rules and regs'

Please some correct me if this has been rescinded, but if I remember correctly wasn't that '5' on the buzzer?...

If so, one can see this bell buzzer being brought into use as a precaution against such incidents in the future

 

[tsr]

As it is clearly a safety issue for the train to leave when the guard is outside the train and finishing a check of a door problem, as described, shouldn't the guard be able to give the "W" shaped arm signal for the train to stop if it starts to leave, and shouldn't the driver check for this around the time of leaving the platform?

 

[Galvanize]

Think there was once a similar incident at a London Terminal where a conductor got left behind a few years ago! It was in the evening rush hour, the conductor was gonna dispatch the train from one of the door panels, but at the last minute, decided to move to another part of the train, due to overcrowding. The conductor closed the doors, then took their key off, they were gonna move to the cab, then go "Ding Ding" from there!

While the conductor was walking to the cab, the train started to move, the driver might of thought they heard 2 on the bell/buzzer!!! So the train had to be held at the next station, while the conductor caught the following train, in order to rejoin the service!!


Believe with Class 377 units and interlock, on the door panels, the signal bell only works when you've got interlock, and also, only if the driver has got their key on! However, in the cabs on Class 377s, the issue was that the signal bell could work WITHOUT interlock, hence why the door close buttons have been disabled for conductors. If the conductor is working from the cab on a 377, they have to give 1-2 to the driver, like on a Voyager or a Class 165 Turbo!

dk1: How long has that arrangement been in place at Liverpool Street with regards to dispatching the loco hauled sets? Believe its something like the platform staff giving the guard the tip, guard locking the doors, then giving the tip back to the platform staff, who give the driver the RA? Seems an odd set up!!

 

[Crossover]

I thought the driver guard buzzer was designed not to work if there was no door interlock, even on pacers, is that not the case?

Been on a 142 only fairly recently (September) where interlock wasn't gained but the buzzer still worked. In that case, it was the other door in the same coach as the local door that hadn't caught properly as after giving a good shove, we seemed to gain interlock. Hence why I suspect this:

Are there not hazard lights on the exterior of the unit? Though of course this doesn't help if it is the coach you are operating the doors from that has a sticky door.

wasn't of much use in that case :P

It was quite amuzing actually as my group were next to the local door and the guard gave two on the buzzer and got nothing back...after waiting a while and wondering if the driver had decided to go home already (service having being sat at a terminal station for well over an hour previously), he called the driver to be told there was no interlock.

The same service had an explained EBA later in the journey so not sure if that was a loss of interlock or such but not much after stopping, we set off again, so whatever it the cause, it evidently wasn't major

142's usually we give a helping hand, the most trouble we have with 142's are the waist locks..forever sticking

The vast majority of guards on 142's that I have seen (and 144's for that matter) tend to give the local door a good shove as it shuts :P

____________________________________

It has been a while since I was on a 507/508 but seen a few head out in the past with the guard stood in the open doorway, in some cases for quite a while. I believe they are sliding doors. Back then I didn't know about this interlock stuff :P

 

[TEW]

didn't know there was other type of units that have a local "slam" door without interlock, you live n learn lol

507s 508s don't have a slam door of course, it's just a single leaf sliding door without interlock. I know 455s have the same set up, so I presume many of the EMUs from that era are set up in the same way.

 

[O L Leigh]

Nope.

Even before refurb the single-leaf crew door on the Cl315s was on the interlock circuit, as is the case with the Cl317s. I know the crew doors on Cl455s were off the interlock circuit prior to refurb because I recall seeing them running around with them open in the height of summer, but I'm not sure that is still the case.

O L Leigh

 

[Intermodal]

I always thought that while disabling buzzers without interlock solves a safety issue of giving the RA with a door open, it also creates a safety issue of not being able to communicate with the driver whilst stopped at a station or in case of a train moving off with a door open, you couldn't buzz one to alert the driver (of course this wouldn't normally happen if the interlock was working properly).

 

[DownSouth]

I could of reported the plonker, but didn't. He's now in Australia anyway

Transportation seems like a pretty hefty penalty for that!

 

[Schnellzug]

This has happenned to a Train Manager at Redruth on voyager type trains. He got off to shut a door that was faulty. He had already given the driver the ready to start signal and after clearing the blockage he got out and closed the door from outside. The driver then got interlock and departed leaving the Train manager on the station! The train was halted at Truro and subsequently cancelled. Mediscreens and investigation I guess!

Why the hell was it cancelled? health & Safety executive hysteria over-riding the convenience of the Public as usual, i suppose, which is exactly the opposite of how it always used to be.

 

[Welshman]

Transportation seems like a pretty hefty penalty for that!

I choked on my muesli over that!

 

[142094]

Why the hell was it cancelled? health & Safety executive hysteria over-riding the convenience of the Public as usual, i suppose, which is exactly the opposite of how it always used to be.

Seeing as conductors generally have safety-critical roles, then not having one on board is a major problem.