As a Conductor I have recently heard about the plans to try and convert more services to driver only trains, especially from the new franchise for Northern in 2016. I love the Conductor role and wondered what other Conductor's think of this and if they think this is something that could actually happen in the near future? (mainly talking about services out of Manchester)
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Conductor future?
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the sniper
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All good things come to an end, but who knows when. Make hay while the sun's shining... The grade won't be killed off without a fight anyway.
There have been lots, too many, threads on this forum about DOO. It might be worth looking some of them up.
There have been lots, too many, threads on this forum about DOO. It might be worth looking some of them up.
Don't believe what you read in the press, how the hell can you do away with a safety critical role and keep safety standards at the level they are now?
Tonnes of revenue would be lost through fare dodging
Passenger safety and wellbeing would be put at risk, how can a driver tell when a disturbance is taking place on the train or vandalism?
If the driver fell ill or was injured in an accident, who would call for help, check on/reassure passengers?
That's just a few points, bottom line is that conductors do alot more than open and close doors and it would be impossible to expect driver's to take on them responsibilities when they already do an extremely thought job already.
Papers like the scum are full of crap, ignore it as it will never happen and as mentioned above, the grade wouldn't go without a fight.
Personally I don't think the grade will disappear overnight and I don't think in some areas it will go anywhere for a long time. When TOCs/DfT do try to remove it there will be one hell of a fight (I hope).
As a conductor myself working in a rural backwater I don't immediately feel the heat in regard to DOO but saying that at my point in my railway career (less than 2 years and in my early 20s) I doubt by the time I do finish the grade will exist in it normal form and I don't really plan to stay as a conductor for too long.
Like the post above I think it'd take a hell of a fight to get rid completely!! I'm an ex conductor myself and I know how comfortable most drivers feel about having the extra support there when needed!
Having done the job I don't know how some of these DOO drivers or services cope without a guard!
Personal opinion obviously
Having done the job I don't know how some of these DOO drivers or services cope without a guard!
Personal opinion obviously
I must say I try to avoid reading this sort of thing, Having just left a job of 8 years as a manager and fought for nearly 2 months through the tough recruitment process to get a job as a Conductor with Northern and being sucsessful as I start training on the 4th of August.
It does cast doubts on if I made the right choice pursuing my dreams if it is only going to be for a couple of years! I was offered another better paid job in the line of work I have done for years but turned it down for a job with Northern.
Fingers crossed DOO does not come into place!
It does cast doubts on if I made the right choice pursuing my dreams if it is only going to be for a couple of years! I was offered another better paid job in the line of work I have done for years but turned it down for a job with Northern.
Fingers crossed DOO does not come into place!
Well I've had the same thoughts and worries myself , I've just been through a down banding battle which was lost and it's not a nice postion to be in losing income . But I'm willing to take the risk not been happy were I am now. But the consultation doc states doo on suitable services and along the lines of freeing up train crew to deal with customers so I'm just hoping the conductor role will be around in some form and we won't be totally out of a job. I don't think it will be a overnight process.
richie26188
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I wouldn't worry too much just yet
Yes they will look at DOO and eventually it may be the norm however because of the costs involved it will take time. The money simply isn't there to roll it out on such a large scale overnight.
Personally I think station staff, especially those in the quieter stations have a lot more to be worried about. Ticketless travel is the big thing most TOCs are pushing, in comparison to DOO it's also much easier and cheaper to impliement
Yes they will look at DOO and eventually it may be the norm however because of the costs involved it will take time. The money simply isn't there to roll it out on such a large scale overnight.
Personally I think station staff, especially those in the quieter stations have a lot more to be worried about. Ticketless travel is the big thing most TOCs are pushing, in comparison to DOO it's also much easier and cheaper to impliement
This post, despite everyones opinions ( mine included ) on the subject, is actual the most realistic scenario of whats likely to happen in the near future...
wanabedriver
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I know when I was at London Overground there was talk of DOO for years before I joined them. Then we had a massive recruitment drive in conductors and a year after the Olympics all conductors were given notice. I believe that London Overground will be 100% DOO by end of August.
Personally I wouldn't bother worrying about it, worrying doesn't change anything and all we can do is fight it if it comes along, this threat came up a few years ago when Agency ticket revenue staff were employed and sold tickets.
I was told by a few stewards on a trade union course that apparently (not my view) this was seen as a backdoor way of taking ticket sales away from Conductors and doing away with them, so industrial action was considered, this was two years ago, but I still applied.
I'm just leaving local government to work for Northern as a conductor, starting on the 4th like a few above and my job has apparently been going for the last five years, but it hasn't, so I have just learnt to blank it out tbh.
Printing stories like this just upsets people and until it's put in black and white I'd enjoy doing the role.
I was told by a few stewards on a trade union course that apparently (not my view) this was seen as a backdoor way of taking ticket sales away from Conductors and doing away with them, so industrial action was considered, this was two years ago, but I still applied.
I'm just leaving local government to work for Northern as a conductor, starting on the 4th like a few above and my job has apparently been going for the last five years, but it hasn't, so I have just learnt to blank it out tbh.
Printing stories like this just upsets people and until it's put in black and white I'd enjoy doing the role.
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Well I'm still going for it anyway and I'm sure I'll enjoy it whilst it lasts and all been well ill have a long future in the rail industry. Every industry is going through change after change at the moment my last 2 jobs I've seen massive changes (both public services) so it's not a new thing to have rumours about job changes, to me anyway. Roll on the 4 th I can't wait to get stuck in
they have been talking about doo for years and when i first started in 89/90 it was the same then , im not worried in the slightest , well on my toc anyway
surely we pay for ourselves in revenue ??
on a side note ive had 3 incidents in the last year where women have fallen getting off the train and suffered head injury's all needed paramedics , 2 were at stations with no platform staff , so who would deal with these issues ?
and they will happen
dont worry brothers and sisters
were needed
surely we pay for ourselves in revenue ??
on a side note ive had 3 incidents in the last year where women have fallen getting off the train and suffered head injury's all needed paramedics , 2 were at stations with no platform staff , so who would deal with these issues ?
and they will happen
dont worry brothers and sisters
were neededThanks for all replies, its good to know so many are interested in the guards role as well as driver. I would love to do this until I retire.............
Bearing in mind the short lengths of franchises who would be willing to take on the huge financial costs (with little chance of return on that 'investment') plus all the disruption that would definitely happen following the announcement.
Can anyone that has read the mcNumpty report (what a waste of electrons that is) point me to the section on protecting the revenue stream once all these schemes* have streamlined the railways please because I cant find it.
London Overground was a unique case where DOO was actually viable :cry: (sorry 313103) because all the stations are manned from start to end of service, they are all close together and emergency services are also nearby, for a few things.
A quick look at the logistics means proper DOO (driver only on the train) is a pipedream and not at all likely to happen, its the safety critical part of the guards job that needs to be watched!
* DOO, ticket office closures, station staff removal etc etc etc.
Can anyone that has read the mcNumpty report (what a waste of electrons that is) point me to the section on protecting the revenue stream once all these schemes* have streamlined the railways please because I cant find it.
London Overground was a unique case where DOO was actually viable :cry: (sorry 313103) because all the stations are manned from start to end of service, they are all close together and emergency services are also nearby, for a few things.
A quick look at the logistics means proper DOO (driver only on the train) is a pipedream and not at all likely to happen, its the safety critical part of the guards job that needs to be watched!
* DOO, ticket office closures, station staff removal etc etc etc.
Cherry_Picker
Established Member
Before I say anything else I'd just like to stress I am not for more DOO in any way, shape or form. I just think the argument that guards pay for themselves because they check tickets and prevent ticketless travel is a crazy one to make. I work for a TOC which runs DOO trains. Those DOO trains do have revenue protection staff on board, they too can check tickets and the will do it for a smaller salary than a guard makes.
Focus your arguments on the safety critical role of the guard, not the financial one because the financial one is an argument you are never ever going to win.
the sniper
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Got to agree sadly, particularly following recent events at London Midland. They've virtually wiped out their entire revenue department (Barrier staff, RPIs and ATEs), the money they made meant nothing, they were a non-obligatory cost. The ATEs (Assistant Ticket Examiners) in particular easily covered their own costs, most of them by a long shot. One Shrewsbury ATE apparently made over £200,000 in a year, nearly 10X his annual salary, but it meant nothing in the end.
Not making this into a debate on DOO
Ive not long since started as a conductor with Northern and am pretty young still got at least 40 years of working left yet . I like you was aware when starting the job that DOO was a hotly contested topic
you asked what current conductors thought of it - I think it is the wrong thing to do on safety grounds , if you want more info on my detailed POV on it feel free to PM me or read the most recent thread on DOO .
But regardless of the rights or wrongs of it , it will eventually become the Norm saving money is seen as king . But I think the grade in its current form on the Northern franchise has got at least 8 years left in it . And then even if the guards door duties are given the driver the role of a second on board member of staff is still seen by the DFT as something of benefit to the passenger so there will still be some sort of on board customer service/revenue role and the RMT will fight tooth and nail for these to be given good pay and conditions .
The DFT has specified that the next franchise has to produce plans for it to be implemented on suitable services . I think assuming this next franchise is let for 7 years we wont be looking till either an extension or the franchise after that for an actual implementation because the franchise needs a lot of new rolling stock(unless you wanna wire 142's up for DOO) , not to mention the major re signalling on a lot of routes operated out of Manchester . and then there is the work required at stations to make it happen . Getting the investment , planning and implementing those changes takes a lot of time , things move slowly in the rail industry .
The fact that the 319's coming to northern from down south are being wired back up for guard operation when they have been used for DOO tells you about the urgency with which DOO is being considered up north
I Would take the job get on with the training and not worry about it for now, that is what I have done , you never know where it could take you and once you have your foot in the door in the rail industry you will find something to do .
Enjoy the training and good luck , might be at a depot with us soon enough
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i completely agree with what your saying , and we have many safety critical dutys they simply cant remove without much backlash and problems , my comment about revenue is still valid but an add on if you like to the argument off doo ,
as someone else has mentioned about all the rpi,s being got rid of on LM . this isnt quite the case as such , a good number have gone as conductors , some took the money , and others have taken this new role which is on more money than they were on in the first place , i believe they will be some kind of on train rpi,s as in the old days , nipping on and off here and there
if the worst did happen and somehow they got doo in i think we would evolve or devolve into this role
i personally have seen an increase in my own revenue since the restructuring , not that that makes any difference to the point but just saying
Russell 926
Member
I have read this topic with much interest. I am about to start with northern on the 4th August as a conductor.
I have just finished a job I had done for 23 years and had heard many rumours of change, mostly for budget cuts and cost effectiveness. A lot of the rumours never happened and those that did took many years to implement.
Although I'm not too concerned about DOO... Yet. It is a worry, especially as I don't want to be looking for another job when I'm in my late 40s.
But, I do agree that the unions wouldn't let it happen without a fight and also that TOCs may not have the deep pockets to pay to implement all the infrastructure and rolling stock changes needed.
The conductor role is safety critical and I can imagine rail user groups not being too keen to see the post disappear.
I have just finished a job I had done for 23 years and had heard many rumours of change, mostly for budget cuts and cost effectiveness. A lot of the rumours never happened and those that did took many years to implement.
Although I'm not too concerned about DOO... Yet. It is a worry, especially as I don't want to be looking for another job when I'm in my late 40s.
But, I do agree that the unions wouldn't let it happen without a fight and also that TOCs may not have the deep pockets to pay to implement all the infrastructure and rolling stock changes needed.
The conductor role is safety critical and I can imagine rail user groups not being too keen to see the post disappear.
Whatever happens there will always be on board members of staff . the job description and role will change but the main part of the job which is dealing with passengers will still be the same .
Also there is always driving or other roles on the railway if you fancy them depending on skills and experience .
For me it's a personal thing as well. As long as I can remember I've always wanted to be a guard - when everyone else in school said they wanted to be policemen or doctors or whatever, this is what I said. It's not the most exciting role ever but it's what gripped me and I'm very happy. The idea that someone can just go 'nah, not worth it any more' and remove my dream from existence is a deeply emotive issue for me because I can't think of much else I'd want to do. I work hard and do everything that's asked of me and thoroughly dislike the modern world where we rush headlong at everything for the benefit of a few people who are driven by financial reward. I get top marks in all of my assessments and flew through the entry tests.
I don't want to live in a world where I have to re-invent myself every few years because someone has come up with another labour saving idea. I want to have my pride, work hard at a job I enjoy and go as nicely as possible when the bell tolls. That's why the railway appeals as things move slowly and I can't forgive those who want to change it.
It seems I can't have what I want because a load of other people want it their way.
On the other hand, living your life with that frame of mind is pointless as I have a lot to be thankful for so I'll echo the others - it's a good life, ignore the moaners and don't regret the decision as there will probably always be something there for you to do even if it's a bit different to what you do now. You're fairly unlikely to actually end up on the dole and the side benefits are great.
I don't want to live in a world where I have to re-invent myself every few years because someone has come up with another labour saving idea. I want to have my pride, work hard at a job I enjoy and go as nicely as possible when the bell tolls. That's why the railway appeals as things move slowly and I can't forgive those who want to change it.
It seems I can't have what I want because a load of other people want it their way.
On the other hand, living your life with that frame of mind is pointless as I have a lot to be thankful for so I'll echo the others - it's a good life, ignore the moaners and don't regret the decision as there will probably always be something there for you to do even if it's a bit different to what you do now. You're fairly unlikely to actually end up on the dole and the side benefits are great.
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