Conditions on changing advance ticket

[cholsey-choose]

Allo!

I have an advance single from Swindon to Carmarthen this weekend, but I've been invited to stop off in Cardiff and have lunch with someone. I realise that by the letter of the rules, I can't use this ticket at all, because stopping the journey at Cardiff would make it invalid (right?).

It seems I can get a partial refund if I exchange it, especially if I've already bought another ticket for that journey. But do you happen to know how strict this is? So for example if I get an off-peak single from Swindon to Carmarthen would that do? Or what about two advance singles for Saturday, breaking at Cardiff for an hour or two so I can have lunch?

Cheers!

 

[Watershed]

As per the Advance ticket T&Cs: "the origin, destination and Train Company or route shown on the ticket(s) must remain the same". This would in theory rule out a change to an Off-Peak ticket as it would have a different route (e.g. "Any Permitted" vs "GWR only"), as well as a change to a set of split Advances.

However, in practice, most booking sites are more generous than those conditions and allow you to change an Advance to a walk-up ticket. RDG do seem to agree with this approach as they've accredited plenty of sites knowing that that's the behaviour.

Some sites, like TrainSplit, allow you to change onto a different combination of splits (or a through ticket to splits). But I would not expect all other sites to necessarily allow this.

In short, it depends more on the retailer you used to buy your Advance tickets (which may allow what you want) than the letter of the rules (which don't).

 

[cholsey-choose]

As per the Advance ticket T&Cs: "the origin, destination and Train Company or route shown on the ticket(s) must remain the same". This would in theory rule out a change to an Off-Peak ticket as it would have a different route (e.g. "Any Permitted" vs "GWR only"), as well as a change to a set of split Advances.

However, in practice, most booking sites are more generous than those conditions and allow you to change an Advance to a walk-up ticket. RDG do seem to agree with this approach as they've accredited plenty of sites knowing that that's the behaviour.

Some sites, like TrainSplit, allow you to change onto a different combination of splits (or a through ticket to splits). But I would not expect all other sites to necessarily allow this.

In short, it depends more on the retailer you used to buy your Advance tickets (which may allow what you want) than the letter of the rules (which don't).

Thank you! I hadn't thought it if in terms of different routes but that makes sense.

 

[z444z]

I’ve seen advice given here in the past that while stopping short on Advance tickets isn’t technically permitted, it’s policy not to enforce it where it obviously isn’t being done to save money (which using a Swindon to Carmarthen ticket only as far as Cardiff makes quite clear I think?)

 

[cholsey-choose]

I’ve seen advice given here in the past that while stopping short on Advance tickets isn’t technically permitted, it’s policy not to enforce it where it obviously isn’t being done to save money (which using a Swindon to Carmarthen ticket only as far as Cardiff makes quite clear I think?)

I had considered that, and my experience is that the gateline at Cardiff central is so busy they never even glance at your ticket. Still makes me uneasy travelling with a technically invalid ticket though... maybe I should just get over it!

 

[z444z]

Stopping short on advance single

I’m travelling from Newcastle to London and because of engineering works had to change trains at Peterborough and again at Cambridge. The second part of my split ticket is an advance single from Elsenham to Liverpool Street. I need to catch the Victoria Line thereafter and realise it will be...

www.railforums.co.uk

This is a recent example

 

[cholsey-choose]

Cheers, it does seem unlikely I'd face any trouble!

 

[redreni]

Cheers, it does seem unlikely I'd face any trouble!

You may want to weigh up factors including:

• the probability that you'll be challenged for doing this;
• the cost of changing your tickets to split Advances (e.g. how much are the split Advances plus admin fee, less the fare already paid); and
• the cost of the worst case scenario where the railway insists you've set out to save money (even though you clearly haven't) or ignores its own internal guidance: this is an excess to the cheapest walk-up fare that would permit break of journey (the off-peak single).

Accordingly, I see no benefit at all in paying the retailer an admin fee for a change to an off-peak single, even if they let you do that (which they might not), since you could pay the excess to an off-peak single at Cardiff, with no admin fee, if asked.

The other thing you could do if you prefer peace of mind, is ask at a ticket office if they will excess your ticket to an off-peak single. Ticket offices have done this for me before, despite the fact the Advance was TOC-restricted and the off-peak wasn't.

 

[yorkie]

Allo!

I have an advance single from Swindon to Carmarthen this weekend, but I've been invited to stop off in Cardiff and have lunch with someone. I realise that by the letter of the rules, I can't use this ticket at all, because stopping the journey at Cardiff would make it invalid (right?).

It seems I can get a partial refund if I exchange it, especially if I've already bought another ticket for that journey. But do you happen to know how strict this is? So for example if I get an off-peak single from Swindon to Carmarthen would that do? Or what about two advance singles for Saturday, breaking at Cardiff for an hour or two so I can have lunch?

Cheers!

Yes, if you replaced the booking with one where the origin and destination match, but the tickets are split at Cardiff, or you end up with a ticket valid via Cardiff that permits break of journey, you're fine.

This should be fairly easy to achieve, assuming you booked through the forum site.

 

[cholsey-choose]

Thanks all! Just one question, What's the worst case scenario on getting stopped at the gate line at Cardiff? Some posts here suggest an excess fare, is that right? No chance (not even theoretically) of being done for fare evasion?

 

[Watershed]

Thanks all! Just one question, What's the worst case scenario on getting stopped at the gate line at Cardiff? Some posts here suggest an excess fare, is that right? No chance (not even theoretically) of being done for fare evasion?

There is no fare evasion provided you are willing to pay the excess fare.

 

[cholsey-choose]

Oh great thanks that does put my mind at ease!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There is no fare evasion provided you are willing to pay the excess fare.

So noted. Just how much might you expect such excess to be?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So noted. Just how much might you expect such excess to be?

The difference between the Advance fare paid and the cheapest walk-up single that permits break of journey. Which depending on whether the Off Peak has restrictions or not could be quite expensive.

 

[z444z]

The difference between the Advance fare paid and the cheapest walk-up single that permits break of journey. Which depending on whether the Off Peak has restrictions or not could be quite expensive.

The walk-up single available is an Anytime Day Single, £47.20 (£31.40 with 1/3 railcard discount). Not too bad.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The walk-up single available is an Anytime Day Single, £47.20 (£31.40 with 1/3 railcard discount). Not too bad.

Indeed.

There is a risk of a Penalty Fare being charged by staff who don't know what they are doing, though. I'd suggest that if it goes this way it's better to accept the Penalty Fare as it can then be appealed as incorrectly issued (because breaking one's journey when one should not on an Advance is not a circumstance relevant to Penalty Fares, so it's a pretty simple appeal). If it instead incorrectly escalated to an MG11, that can be far harder to deal with, particularly if TfW are still using the clueless and incompetent Transport Investigations Ltd to process these.

 

[z444z]

Indeed.

There is a risk of a Penalty Fare being charged by staff who don't know what they are doing, though. I'd suggest that if it goes this way it's better to accept the Penalty Fare as it can then be appealed as incorrectly issued (because breaking one's journey when one should not on an Advance is not a circumstance relevant to Penalty Fares, so it's a pretty simple appeal). If it instead incorrectly escalated to an MG11, that can be far harder to deal with, particularly if TfW are still using the clueless and incompetent Transport Investigations Ltd to process these.

Agreed.

 

[tram21]

Indeed.

There is a risk of a Penalty Fare being charged by staff who don't know what they are doing, though. I'd suggest that if it goes this way it's better to accept the Penalty Fare as it can then be appealed as incorrectly issued (because breaking one's journey when one should not on an Advance is not a circumstance relevant to Penalty Fares, so it's a pretty simple appeal). If it instead incorrectly escalated to an MG11, that can be far harder to deal with, particularly if TfW are still using the clueless and incompetent Transport Investigations Ltd to process these.

The likelihood of that is so incredibly low though its not really worth considering!

 

[z444z]

The likelihood of that is so incredibly low though its not really worth considering!

We see penalty fares issued for invalid reasons frequently. I don’t think there’s any harm in informing the OP in the way @Bletchleyite did.

 

[cholsey-choose]

This is all really informative, thanks!

So why is it that (officially) in this case an excess should be offered, whereas in other cases travelling without a valid ticket leads to sterner measures such as prosecution?

 

[Watershed]

This is all really informative, thanks!

So why is it that (officially) in this case an excess should be offered, whereas in other cases travelling without a valid ticket leads to sterner measures such as prosecution?

Basically because the NRCoT says so. There are some situations that are correctly resolved by means of an excess (travelling at an invalid time with an Off-Peak ticket, or breaking your journey where not permitted). In most other situations the ticket is fundamentally invalid and the passenger is thus liable to a PF or prosecution.

 

[cholsey-choose]

Basically because the NRCoT says so. There are some situations that are correctly resolved by means of an excess (travelling at an invalid time with an Off-Peak ticket, or breaking your journey where not permitted). In most other situations the ticket is fundamentally invalid and the passenger is thus liable to a PF or prosecution.

Can't argue with that, thanks!