So if Mojo has got official notification of that, why not stick it in the tickets section on here as advice?
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So if Mojo has got official notification of that, why not stick it in the tickets section on here as advice?
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Baxenden Bank
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Yes, clearly. As I knew when I was going on holiday I could and would have bought both the OPR and Rover in advance.
First Great Western claim to allow on-line purchase of rovers, for postal delivery, but the website doesn't offer the rover in question.
I have no intention of looking through every TOC website to see if, tucked away in an obscure corner, there is a magic button leading me to a page where I can buy one. ATW advertise the rovers on their website, they are the principle operator of services on which the rover is valid, they should make them easy to buy!
Now, if I was actually allowed to buy a Rover more than three days in advance (say up to 12 weeks:roll
, then I could have easily arranged to pass by Stoke Station and buy it in person at the ticket office, hardly any inconvenience at all, but with only three days allowed that is much more difficult to arrange without going well out of my way and with extra expense of the local bus or train fare to get there.Regarding Peak Wayfarers, for decades these were available in advance (as a scratch off ticket). These have now been discontinued and instead have to be bought from the ticket office or a guard that day (and I think just one day before). A retrograde step in my view, I'll just end up not bothering because I have to jump off the train at Macclesfield to buy one now - unless the EMT guard can conjure one up on his machine. Or perhaps a Virgin / Cross Country guard - who, of course, has to sell me one because I commenced my journey at a station without any ticket issuing facilities, as per NRCOC.
Watch this space once I have used up my supply of scratch-offs.
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Yes, clearly. As I knew when I was going on holiday I could and would have bought both the OPR and Rover in advance.
First Great Western claim to allow on-line purchase of rovers, for postal delivery, but the website doesn't offer the rover in question.
I have no intention of looking through every TOC website to see if, tucked away in an obscure corner, there is a magic button leading me to a page where I can buy one. ATW advertise the rovers on their website, they are the principle operator of services on which the rover is valid, they should make them easy to buy!
Now, if I was actually allowed to buy a Rover more than three days in advance (say up to 12 weeks:roll
I was looking at the ATW site earlier - you are correct in what you say, though they did add the following caveat " We are looking to make our Wales passes available online ". Which in all honesty , I wouldnt have thought would take much doing right now anyway considering just how many tickets can be bought online now!!
I'm not sure how "official" it was, but if we are going to include info regarding which TOCs want passengers to strictly adhere to Condition 3, we would need a list. If anyone is interested in helping us compile that lit (even if you can just obtain information regarding one TOC) please send me a PM. A comprehensive list would indeed be useful.
Are you guys pro active in seeking clarification from TOCs on new rules introduced if you can see potential for an issue? Or do you just offer advice to a forumite once that issue has cropped up ?
Unless I see it on TOC or ATOC letterheaded paper or on an official site, I would still follow the official procedure in the NRCoC. ¨Some online forum said it would be OK¨ is unlikely to wash with an RPI.
These are my thoughts too, really.
Flamingo
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I'm somewhat confused by this thread. The companies concerned have said to previous enquiries they will happily sell the relevant ticket on the train, the relevant ticket is not available at the TVM which would (to my mind) make a bylaw 18 prosecution damn-near impossible, so what's the problem? ATOC have not put a system in place to allow for the easy upgrading of these tickets (not the passengers fault), so just buy on the train.
Is everybody so uptight about following all the other bylaws about travelling after consuming alcohol, or putting bags or feet on seats, or what size of bag they can carry? I thought not...
Is everybody so uptight about following all the other bylaws about travelling after consuming alcohol, or putting bags or feet on seats, or what size of bag they can carry? I thought not...
A point I have already made.....which coming from a fellow guard is not suprising.
Well, I don't do any of those things. So what's the problem?
Are you advocating that we disregard those other byelaws too?
I´m not convinced that TOCs would not try to prosecute under the byelaws, or issue a Penalty Fare.
I´m not convinced that TOCs would not try to prosecute under the byelaws, or issue a Penalty Fare.
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Because if you look int he disputes and prosecutions thread a few people have been arriving at Picadilly on the Northern services having not bought one at the station they boarded at for whatever reason , and then the guard on the train has not passed through and then the RPI has slapped them with a penalty .
The OP could have boarded the train with the intention to buy the ticket on the train . The Guards machine could be broken , run out of batteries , not working , or the guard could be dealing with someone or something else, or the guard could just be having a cant be bothered day and doesn't go through which means they dont get to sell the ticket to the OP - Being a guard I know there are various reasons I might not get to pass through the train and carry out revenue duties so you should not be relying on the fact that the guard will sell you a ticket on board
He is then faced with the RPI's at Piccadilly , who could then decide that today is not his lucky number and whatever he is saying they have heard it all before because they must hear numerous excuses day in day out . Seeing as they probably have a target of penalty fares to hand out . His journey then costs him £80 - Even if the OP was handed the £80 penalty and managed to successfully appeal it (meaning the TOC would have to go against what the RPI's are saying ) , Then the stress and hassle of being in limbo land whilst the issue is resolved is not going to be compensated . Lets face it how many of them STM staff actually would know how to produce a GM evening rover on their Advantix machines or have heard of them ?
That is why If I was in the situation the OP was in (not being rail staff ofc) I would purchase the ticket that got me at least to the destination where I could get the rover . This way if worst comes to worse and I am faced by the RPI's at picadilly I have a genuine ticket and so dont have to deal with them in any way apart form showing them my ticket .
Flamingo
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As I have never been to Manchester, and don't know the Revenue staff there, I can't comment on that. There just seems to be an awful lot of 'what if's' in this thread, but no cases where the sky has actually fallen in...
Can this rover ticket be issued via an avantix machine? And if so, is there any specific reason that it should not be so issued. e.g. the possible issue of a travel pack of vouchers &c. in conjunction with the rover.
To me if you can issue a ticket from your avantix, then you should do so if that is the most suitable ticket for the passenger, esp. if they have boarded at an unstaffed station.
Do you think a guard from another TOC would issue the rover in the future for you? That said we are under instruction not to issue 1st class all line rovers to anybody with a Welsh accent under any circumstances.
There are a lot of cases of people arriving at Piccadilly having not purchased a ticket at either the station they boarded at , or on the train for whatever reason and then being given a penalty by the STM staff
This is most of the time technically them breaking the law but quite often down to unreasonable queues for TVM's or offices at peak times . Something I as a guard on board would not make an Issue with - if someone explained to me that they boarded at a staffed station with no ticket because the queue was too long for the TVM and they needed to get to work or they could not get the ticket they wanted from the TVM I and a majority of guards would issue them a ticket no questions . But I cannot guarantee that on every train I work I will have the time or facility to issue that ticket . For that reason the person boarding the train with no ticket might then have to try and explain the situation to the revenue staff .
I can understand knowing Manchester Picadilly well why starmill would not want to risk being in a dispute over why s/he is not in possession of a Ticket with these RPI's . My understanding is that there training has not actually been conducted by Northern and from what I have heard/seen some of them dont have a clue about ticketing whatsoever .
Given that he could not buy the ranger from the ticket machine , and there was no guarantee a guard would be able to sell him one on the train his last resort would have been the barrier staff who might have just decided they had heard that excuse too many times and given him a penalty .
Personally for me I think in this thread the "what if" of not having a ticket and trying to purchase one from these barrier staff resulting in a prosecution or £80 penalty is not particularly far fetched and the penalty high enough that whilst it is not the sky falling in , when it compares to the OP wishing to buy a ticket a fraction of this price the what if is worth discussing .
PermitToTravel
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I can't speak for anyone else, but my level of respect for TOC customer service bods is about the same as that you indicate when you post about them. I seriously doubt that that response was checked with the revenue protection department, or if it was, that every RPI knows that the NRCoC is not to be enforced.
Baxenden Bank
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The problem is that condition 3 of NRCOC gives clear instruction on what the passenger should do in the event that the ticket he requires is not available from the TVM.
That instruction is to make 'part payment' by buying a ticket for part of his journey and 'upgrading' it later.
The instructions do not include 'hop on the train and buy it from the hopefully helpful guard'.
Such an instruction cannot properly be issued as it is instructing someone to carry out a criminal act.
A police officer in uniform may be able to instruct people to do things which would otherwise be unlawful, a railway official may be able to do similar, but how would one prove that one had received such an instruction?
Northern seem to want it both ways. When it suits them buy on train, but, randomly and without warning, when it doesn't suit them you can face the £80 admin fee or risk your day on court.
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Can this rover ticket be issued via an avantix machine? And if so, is there any specific reason that it should not be so issued. e.g. the possible issue of a travel pack of vouchers &c. in conjunction with the rover.
To me if you can issue a ticket from your avantix, then you should do so if that is the most suitable ticket for the passenger, esp. if they have boarded at an unstaffed station.
Do you think a guard from another TOC would issue the rover in the future for you? That said we are under instruction not to issue 1st class all line rovers to anybody with a Welsh accent under any circumstances.
The EMT guard couldn't find it on his machine but I didn't press him. I don't know what type of machine they use. I have never been offered the promised vouchers or map pack, regardless the vouchers at least are downloadable as a pdf for home printing anyway. The only issue I can think of preventing either on-line purchase and TOD collection, or guard issue, is the need to print out the 'date boxes' ticket as well as the ticket itself - I don't know if the machine is capable but I would have thought so.
hairyhandedfool
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I'm not certain it is a deliberate ploy from the staff (though someone further up the food chain might have that agenda), I think it is more a case of some staff being told "this is the rule, enforce it" and other staff being told "appease the passengers at all costs".
I will investigate my machine tomorrow & see if it is possible to issue and if so what code is required. Standby.....
As an aside I notice that you mentioned Pembroke Dock station. How easy is it to get to the Irish Ferries' terminal from the station. We staff now get discounted fares on this route so might give it a try sometime. To avoid going off topic you can PM me. Ta.
Baxenden Bank
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It wasn't inconsistency of staff that I was referring to. Rather the fact that for weeks and months you can probably buy from a guard without any problem (with Northern's complicit acceptance of the practice), people get in the habit of doing so, assuming that this is normal and legal. Then, randomly Northern decide to do a revenue block, lots of people get caught out (stung?) and there is an explosion of worried people writing in to 'disputes and prosecutions'.
I believe this thread has more than run its course and that everyone has had more than enough opportunity to make their points as such this thread is now locked. I would like to remind everyone of our Forum Rules as I feel that a number of people may have allowed them to slip their mind whilst contributing to this thread.
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