Complexity isn't the Issue with Rail Fares...

[redreni]

The fact that there are some, edge-case unintended outcomes does not change the wording. It is very clear that the prerequisite is having sufficient credit and touching in - there is nothing about the elapsed journey time.

As I have highlighted, the interpretation you are suggesting would cause a great many people to commit criminal offences during disruption - which clearly cannot be the case.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2025 ==


Where do TfL's Conditions of Carriage say that Oyster ceases to be valid when the MJT is exceeded?

I mean, one fundamental issue with telling somebody who's just come off a plane at Gatwick to "just touch in" is that they haven't actually agreed to any particular terms at all, nor is it particularly reasonable to treat them as if they had. But I do agree that trying to enforce conditions that can't even be looked up as they're not in the Conditions of Carriage or the NRCoT, would reach new heights of absurdity. Maximum journey times would be one such example.

 

[Starmill]

I'm expecting PAYG zones around the major cities, yes, not across the whole of Northern. In the wider area the Northern Only walk up fares would be replaced by APOD which are only removed in the PAYG zones. At least that's how I read it.

I think there will be a small number of large pay as you go zones. However you look at it though people aren't going to willingly start paying 60% more for Leeds - York regardless of the detail how it's implemented, so the railway will overall become less efficient. Fewer passengers (or rather, slower growth) is probably considered a good output though because it means less delay.

 

[Richardr]

West Midlands Trains have pushed back very hard to be allowed to keep their operator specific fares. Frankly it's a relief that they've made the effort when most of the rest of the industry seems to have given up. Anyone who thinks it's sensible for the London - Birmingham stopping trains to cost the same as Avanti on the day of travel is kidding themselves. Especially when Avanti is like London - Newcastle is now.

Not only that, as you say, but if we didn't have operator specific fares on that route and similar ones, wouldn't all of the WMT intermediate fares have to rise substantially, as otherwise the split ticketing potential would be huge and baked in?

 

[Starmill]

Not only that, as you say, but if we didn't have operator specific fares on that route and similar ones, wouldn't all of the WMT intermediate fares have to rise substantially, as otherwise the split ticketing potential would be huge and baked in?

Indeed. It's as if the project is being pushed by civil service staff who do not really understand the market or know much about the train service at all, and are simply given a brief that says "maximum three ticket types but no loss of revenue, no operator restrictions - make it work". Which is of course because it is. At least they've not tried to remove the geographic route restrictions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2025 ==

I mean, one fundamental issue with telling somebody who's just come off a plane at Gatwick to "just touch in" is that they haven't actually agreed to any particular terms at all, nor is it particularly reasonable to treat them as if they had. But I do agree that trying to enforce conditions that can't even be looked up as they're not in the Conditions of Carriage or the NRCoT, would reach new heights of absurdity. Maximum journey times would be one such example.

A lot of people have trust issues with pay as you go, this is part of the reason why. I completely understand too because until recently TfL couldn't even be bothered to display a simple table of common fares from that station at the entrance before you tap in. Thankfully this is now corrected.

 

[MikeWh]

until recently TfL couldn't even be bothered to display a simple table of common fares from that station at the entrance before you tap in. Thankfully this is now corrected.

TfL have no authority to display posters at Gatwick Airport without permission from GTR. GTR have form for making changes to PAYG (esp extension) fares without informing customers in advance.

 

[Starmill]

TfL have no authority to display posters at Gatwick Airport without permission from GTR. GTR have form for making changes to PAYG (esp extension) fares without informing customers in advance.

I don't think there's a chart at any non tfl managed stations is there? I've never seen them. Most other operators would probably much rather you didn't realise how much you would be charged until it were too late. Few people would use GX otherwise.

 

[Krokodil]

That would be an incredibly niche activity (even given where it would be possible, i.e. only on nights when the Night Tube runs and only on those routes) and thus really isn't of any sort of concern whatsoever.

Would be popular with the tissue beggars!

But for practical purposes where can that fare be? In the case of Manchester - Chester it will probably be a flexible single for about £13, with some similar prices for Advance tickets to today but in much more restrictive quota. If you made it about £5, which would be where I'd put it then you'd never deliver the capacity.

£13 is cheaper than the cheapest walk-up single sold at the moment (the Avanti one, which people frequently get tripped up by because there's a limited number of valid itineraries).

So any simplification means much less efficient revenue management: your choice is busy trains being so busy that people are standing in the aisles and at risk of being left behind, or trains during most of the day with vacant unsold seats.

The revenue management on this route seems to be rather cack-handed with far too generous quotas on the busiest trains. It feels like cheap Advances are being thrown about like confetti for the busiest trains. People already get left behind on some days. At the moment you either get a bargain or you get ripped-off. The £13 you mention above sounds a reasonable (generous even) compromise for the journey in question.

So while it's easy for train conductors to whinge that it's all the pricing manager's fault - it's actually down to their revenue management expertise that the industry has grown as much as it has in recent years

So when someone has already paid for their ticket but I am charging for a new one because it is for the wrong time or wrong operator, is this helping to grow the railway as a whole or are these TOC-specific fares between Chester and Manchester just affecting how big a slice of the pie each operator gets while destroying passenger goodwill?

Anyone who thinks it's sensible for the London - Birmingham stopping trains to cost the same as Avanti on the day of travel is kidding themselves.

From what has been said on here about loadings on the Birminghams, Avanti is overcharging and prices could be cut without risking a capacity crunch. Obviously once HS2 opens to Euston capacity is expanded yet further. Likewise I suspect that the ridiculous Anytime fares between London and Manchester could come down without causing a capacity crunch - they've distorted the market such that the Off Peak trains are much busier.

I can however see a justification for the differentiation on the Trent Valley, where Avanti trains are generally full and there is a need to price people off of the intercity services and use the stoppers as a budget option.

 

[redreni]

So when someone has already paid for their ticket but I am charging for a new one because it is for the wrong time or wrong operator, is this helping to grow the railway as a whole or are these TOC-specific fares between Chester and Manchester just affecting how big a slice of the pie each operator gets while destroying passenger goodwill?

Engineering this situation is a masterstroke by pricing managers, since each one of those people counts as two people, given they pay twice. But they only take up one seat.

This kind of revenue growth is definitely sustainable over the long term - in fact I'm sure if David Horne commissioned a survey it would show the people who pay twice are at least 17% happier with the railway than those who only pay once.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From what has been said on here about loadings on the Birminghams, Avanti is overcharging and prices could be cut without risking a capacity crunch. Obviously once HS2 opens to Euston capacity is expanded yet further. Likewise I suspect that the ridiculous Anytime fares between London and Manchester could come down without causing a capacity crunch - they've distorted the market such that the Off Peak trains are much busier.

It was actually part of Avanti's bid to reduce them, I seem to recall a figure of about £250 for Euston-Manchester return, presently a ludicrous £386. COVID resulted in this being dropped.

 

[Starmill]

Would be popular with the tissue beggars!


£13 is cheaper than the cheapest walk-up single sold at the moment (the Avanti one, which people frequently get tripped up by because there's a limited number of valid itineraries).


The revenue management on this route seems to be rather cack-handed with far too generous quotas on the busiest trains. It feels like cheap Advances are being thrown about like confetti for the busiest trains. People already get left behind on some days. At the moment you either get a bargain or you get ripped-off. The £13 you mention above sounds a reasonable (generous even) compromise for the journey in question.


So when someone has already paid for their ticket but I am charging for a new one because it is for the wrong time or wrong operator, is this helping to grow the railway as a whole or are these TOC-specific fares between Chester and Manchester just affecting how big a slice of the pie each operator gets while destroying passenger goodwill?


From what has been said on here about loadings on the Birminghams, Avanti is overcharging and prices could be cut without risking a capacity crunch. Obviously once HS2 opens to Euston capacity is expanded yet further. Likewise I suspect that the ridiculous Anytime fares between London and Manchester could come down without causing a capacity crunch - they've distorted the market such that the Off Peak trains are much busier.

I can however see a justification for the differentiation on the Trent Valley, where Avanti trains are generally full and there is a need to price people off of the intercity services and use the stoppers as a budget option.

Unfortunately you're still stuck imagining that it's really about capacity rather than money. It's not. It's almost entirely about money. There is no chance of this changing unless there's a prospect of a government being elected which actually wants to provide good publicly-funded transport. This seems very very very unlikely to me.

£13 would be a £26 return between Manchester and Chester, which is a complete rip off, and an enormous increase from today. Approximately £7.50 would be sensible.

 

[Llandudno]

I think you're probably expecting a much smaller pay as you go zone in that case. Nearly all the Northern Only walk up fares would be a huge rise if you removed them.

Most people would rightly pan a Leeds - York single of over £13 as a rip off, but I bet that's what it'll be.

Transdev May bring back the Leeds-York CityZap bus in that case…!

 

[PeterC]

This only works with relatively small fares not on a national scale where everyone tapping in at Penzance would be temporarily charged the fare to Wick!

Not that old Chestnut again. TfL don't deduct the maximum possible fare from Oyster so why would it be done on a national scheme?

I agree that the TfL system wouldn't scale up. To work on a national scale it would require a complete redesign of software, hardware and working practices.

 

[yorksrob]

I'd have thought that was pretty obvious - so commuters going home from London pay more but evening leisure travellers into London pay less. It's an absolutely obvious model to use and makes perfect sense - it segments the market near enough perfectly, and indeed is how the vast majority of evening peak restrictions work on the railway generally.

Surely if that were the motivation, you'd include journeys involving zone 1 ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely if that were the motivation, you'd include journeys involving zone 1 ?

It does. Journeys out of it, which tend to be commuters, rather than into it, which tend to be leisure.

 

[DDB]

Not that old Chestnut again. TfL don't deduct the maximum possible fare from Oyster so why would it be done on a national scheme?

I agree that the TfL system wouldn't scale up. To work on a national scale it would require a complete redesign of software, hardware and working practices.

How does it actually work then?

 

[PeterC]

How does it actually work then?

?????

 

[Starmill]

It'd work fine in disruption too if TfL could just manage to set up a true Verbundtarif and not charge buses as if they were run entirely separately. I get that a bus only journey might be charged lower, but there's no reason a zone-to-zone journey should not be able to include bus journeys at no extra cost rather than one in the middle randomly resulting in the journey being split in two.

Leap, kind of, does do that on their pay as you go. But does anywhere in the UK? There's a premium fare for mixing bus and train/tram in most places.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2025 ==

That would be an incredibly niche activity (even given where it would be possible, i.e. only on nights when the Night Tube runs and only on those routes) and thus really isn't of any sort of concern whatsoever.

I can't imagine anyone attempting to do it other than an enthusiast or, potentially, a homeless person.

In any case when the ticket has expired the remedy of asking the customer to leave the train and station is still perfectly available and legitimate. It's only using criminal sanction that isn't possible.

 

[DDB]

?????

I don't know if you mean you don’t understand my question or you don't know the answer?

You asserted that Oyster doesn't work by deducting the maximum possible fare when you touch in and then refunding the required amount when you touch out. So how does it work?

 

[Dirty_Mac]

I don't know if you mean you don’t understand my question or you don't know the answer?

You asserted that Oyster doesn't work by deducting the maximum possible fare when you touch in and then refunding the required amount when you touch out. So how does it work?

They only deduct fares at the end of the journey; otherwise, the amount you would need on your Oyster card at all times is absurd. Some places do have higher requirements than others, though: https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transp.../foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0638-2223

For contactless, they don't charge you anything until the end of the day.

 

[Hadders]

They only deduct fares at the end of the journey; otherwise, the amount you would need on your Oyster card at all times is absurd. Some places do have higher requirements than others, though: https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transp.../foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0638-2223

For contactless, they don't charge you anything until the end of the day.

I’m sure @MikeWh will know the answer but I believe that Oyster deducts a sum equal to the fare to the next station when you touch in.

So if you don’t have at least that amount of credit on your Oyster card you won’t be let through ticket barriers.

 

[MikeWh]

I’m sure @MikeWh will know the answer but I believe that Oyster deducts a sum equal to the fare to the next station when you touch in.

So if you don’t have at least that amount of credit on your Oyster card you won’t be let through ticket barriers.

Not quite.

You need at least enough to get to the cheapest next station, taking account of any caps which may have been or are about to be reached.

The maximum fare appropriate at that station is deducted from the balance. That may put the balance negative but you won't generally see that unless the adjustment on touch out doesn't make it positive again.

 

[Hadders]

Not quite.

You need at least enough to get to the cheapest next station, taking account of any caps which may have been or are about to be reached.

The maximum fare appropriate at that station is deducted from the balance. That may put the balance negative but you won't generally see that unless the adjustment on touch out doesn't make it positive again.

Thanks! I knew you’d know.