Complexity isn't the Issue with Rail Fares...

[Bletchleyite]

If only public transport was considered a public service rather than something to squeeze every last drop of profit out of.

Even if it was, there's limited amounts of funding and capacity, and so some level of yield management is still desirable.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think anyone is assuming the Oyster fare is always £16.80. A vast majority know roughly what their regular journey costs.

PAYG is horrendous in disruption when making a longer journey. An actual example

Yesterday, my sister was looking to travel from Hampton Court to Cookham. The cheapest route is via the pink reader at Richmond and Ealing Broadway. She aimed to catch the 1554 train from Hampton Court but touched in around 1540. On arrival at Richmond, the District Line wasn't running due to trespass. Not much advice on what to do instead.

At this point she could have got a 65 bus to Ealing Broadway, but then she would trigger not only the £1.75 bus fare but a peak time journeys from Ealing Broadway at £13.40, with no chance of recovering the additional cost.

At about 5pm it seemed obvious that nothing was going to move, and, with Clapham Junction to West Brompton shut this week, it seemed to make sense to go via Windsor.

Next train to Staines was 1723. Arrived at 1741 and she timed out. Arrived in Cookham about 3½ hours after leaving

Result is that a journey that should have cost £7.50 has come through at about £25.

No Delay Repay possible as it was a TfL problem that she then had to divert round using only National Rail services. Now needs a call to TfL support to get some sort of refund, but it is unlikely to be back to £7.50 given the journey she actually had to make.

 

[yorksrob]

The complexity doesn't just come from the fare itself.

In West Yorks people used to be able leave after 9:30 in the morning and return any time they wanted.

Then a few years back, the government forced WYorks to introduce an evening peak. This was completely pointless other than to raise fares revenue. Not only do people now have an element of extra complexity deciding when to come back, there's added complexity of whether a station you're travelling to is in WYorks and attracts an evening peak.

All completely unnecessary, but this complexity is apparently good as it fleeces more out of passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is notable is that XC managed to change all their Off Peaks to a "not before 0930" restriction which is dead simple, aside from the perennial question of whether 0930 itself is restricted or not, because I always forget that. Yet nobody else has done that. Why?

Evening restrictions are needed if you single-fare price, I suppose, but even then that could be simple and memorable i.e. a standard 1600-1900. Yes, it creates anomalies, but you can smooth those using Advance fares.

 

[blimmo]

One thing to note is that there is actually very little jeopardy using off peaks since the worst that can happen is you pay the excess to the anytime.

I don't think that much simplification is necessary. The penalties certainly need reform (at least removing the strict liability criminal offences) but I think really the real solution is how fares are presented to the traveller. Currently those that have very little knowledge of the fares system and don't care to simply choose a specific train online and get a valid ticket. There are also those that are sufficiently interested in the fares system (most readers of this thread probably) to carefully choose the best fare for their particular circumstances and know which trains they can travel on often better than the staff checking the tickets. The real problem is in those in between who, say, see an anytime fare and conclude (reasonably) this should allow them to travel on any train then are caught out by railcard restrictions. I don't think that something like the routeing guide is going to catch these people out, it's things like railcard or split restrictions that are more likely to be a problem here.

They perhaps used to be that, but now they are a deliberate way of maximising income for the railway's benefit, not what you suggest.

This is really the problem in my opinion. If fares are cheap enough people won't try every trick to make them cheaper. Using fares to manage demand is very reasonable. Using fares to extract as much money as possible is no way to run a public service.

Sunk costs are a powerful marketing tool and are why people perceive car travel to be cheap as the only thing associated to a specific journey is fuel.

I would rather we reduced the sunk costs of car travel (pay as you go insurance and road pricing) than increased the sunk costs of rail travel although I appreciate this would require some serious political will that is very unlikely to be forthcoming. Mainly because I think that normalising owning a car for journeys that are not convenient by public transport but still using public transport whenever practical is really important.

 

[jfollows]

One thing to note is that there is actually very little jeopardy using off peaks since the worst that can happen is you pay the excess to the anytime.

Would be true, but there have been plenty of reports here of Penalty Fares and MG11 reports for people doing this.
You’re not wrong, of course.
Afternoon/evening peak fares are the cause of this, as @yorksrob says, and the same thing happened in Manchester.

Evening peak fares should be scrapped, other than in contactles/Oyster areas perhaps. I know what time I’m leaving, and pay the appropriate fare, but run the risk of an incorrect prosecution if I’m delayed on my return.

 

[The exile]

This sentence epitomises the stupidity of the fares system imo.

If I had my way, I would scrap Railcards entirely. It's an unnecessary addition to the complexity of the rail system which punishes occasional travellers. If we are to retain them, then yes, I would rather they had reduced usefulness in their final year but their validity matched the name of the railcard. Calling it a 16-25 Railcard when it's valid until the day before you're 27 is stupid.

Of course it used to be the “Young Persons’ Railcard” , having previously been the Student Railcard.
If we’re going to have railcards at all then let’s have the same discounts, conditions and restrictions for them all (with the exception of the disabled persons one) so the only difference is at the point of purchase of the railcard.

 

[blimmo]

Would be true, but there have been plenty of reports here of Penalty Fares and MG11 reports for people doing this.

Indeed, the first change to the fares system should be that the people enforcing it actually know how to do their jobs...
Of course this would be less important without bylaw 18 since a penalty fare should be overturned relatively simply on appeal in these circumstances. I suppose this also assumes a competent appeals body...

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing to note is that there is actually very little jeopardy using off peaks since the worst that can happen is you pay the excess to the anytime.

True. I must admit to being very surprised that it was route excesses for which the new NRCoT attempted to remove the rights to penalty-free on board excessing and not time excesses. I would imagine far more people wilfully try it on with time-restricted tickets than are off route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Oct 2025 ==

Evening peak fares should be scrapped, other than in contactles/Oyster areas perhaps. I know what time I’m leaving, and pay the appropriate fare, but run the risk of an incorrect prosecution if I’m delayed on my return.

Trouble is that if you have single fare pricing and you don't have evening peak restrictions that means your Anytime has to be a pretty hefty fare because nobody will ever pay it other than in the morning. And single fare pricing is in my view a very good thing.

 

[Harpers Tate]

The biggest difference between rail travel and the Boots analogy is the sequence of events and it is that which introduces the "jeopardy".

In a shop, you can clearly state your intent by loading a basket with goods and presenting them to the till at which point you might pay. You actually begin the process of carrying out your intentions before paying. The till personnel can (as in the example given) advise you on ways to improve your offer and you can then change your mind (in the example, by loading more goods into the basket) thereby changing your intentions and then present yourself again to make payment.

In the case of the railway, you state your intentions first and pay. Only then - after payment - do you have any opportunity to carry out your intentions and must carry them out precisely as stated upfront. You have little or no option to change those intentions.

Other comparisons are typically flawed for equally significant reasons. It's all but impossible for example to board an incorrect flight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the case of the railway, you state your intentions first and pay. Only then - after payment - do you have any opportunity to carry out your intentions and must carry them out precisely as stated upfront. You have little or no option to change those intentions.

A key benefit of contactless is that that isn't true any more, though, provided you stay within the area. It's more like the shop - you carry out your intentions and are retrospectively charged based on what you did. It differs from the shop in that it can be harder to see up front what the prices are, though. In that sense it's more like ordering in a pub - most people don't ask how much individual beers are, you ask for what you want, they pour it and then you pay for it and go and drink it. Occasionally the landlord will warn you if you pick a particularly expensive option, but not always. But you can't, unlike on the railway, order a pint of Carling, go and drink a pint of Landlord and get prosecuted for it - of course it would be theft to do that for which you could be prosecuted, but because the landlord serves the drinks and not you yourself the situation can't arise by accident.

 

[blimmo]

I would imagine far more people wilfully try it on with time-restricted tickets than are off route.

Partly because there's just more opportunities with time restrictions. Pretty much any pair of unbarriered stations has a potential for buying an off peak even if you know you'll be travelling when it isn't valid but it requires very particular journeys to be using a route restriction incorrectly. Also route restrictions are likely either to be longer distance where even off peaks can be pricey or differences that are barely worth the effort. I was also baffled by the changes being to route restrictions and not time restrictions.

It differs from the shop in that it can be harder to see up front what the prices are, though.

This is the biggest problem with contactless in my view. Within a city where fares are never that high it's fine but project oval has really expanded the contactless area to a point where the fares can get well beyond the point I'm happy finding out the cost afterwards.

 

[JonathanH]

This is the biggest problem with contactless in my view. Within a city where fares are never that high it's fine but project oval has really expanded the contactless area to a point where the fares can get well beyond the point I'm happy finding out the cost afterwards.

There comes a point at which planning is needed. In the shop anology you do have the chance to check a price before you go to pay. The same applies with Contactless. There is no suggestion with Contactless that you shouldn't check the fare before travelling. It only really falls down in disruption.

 

[Julia]

Even when there might not be actual jeopardy, there's constant slightly-threatening reminders everywhere. Stand at Finsbury Park on a bad day for Thameslink and you'll get a long series of automated announcements, not only the generic "it's only fair we all pay the fare", but every train is announced with "you MUST check that your ticket is valid on this train" (like, you're going to penalise me for trying to make the best of a bad situation when you're not fulfilling your side of the bargain?!). No sense of user-friendliness...

 

[AlterEgo]

There comes a point at which planning is needed. In the shop anology you do have the chance to check a price before you go to pay. The same applies with Contactless. There is no suggestion with Contactless that you shouldn't check the fare before travelling. It only really falls down in disruption.

Not many people check the fare with contactless. They just assume it'll be reasonable.

 

[Krokodil]

My usual response to complaints that fares are complex is that the network itself is complex and that, actually, the apparent complexities arising from things like the variety of fares, permitted routes and break of journey are very much to the passenger's advantage

That's just an excuse.

The "network" involved in a journey from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport is not complex. There are no alternative routes one might reasonably consider taking. Yet because there are three operators involved there is an astonishing array of tickets on offer. TPE only, TfW only, on-the-day advances for Northern or TfW, Airport Advances for TPE (which in the event of a delayed flight can be used on a later train operated by TPE, Northern or ERM but not TfW) and the choice of an Anytime or Off Peak tickets for the various operators which might be valid from 0900 onwards or only from 0930 until the evening peak. All three operators are nationalised so everything ultimately goes to or comes from the Treasury anyway. You might argue that journey planner ticket issuing systems make it easy for the passenger to choose which time to depart but anyone familiar with platform 13 at Manchester Piccadilly will know that trains almost never turn up at the advertised time. Bear in mind that most of the people going to Manchester Airport are not regular rail travellers and many will be foreign nationals.

The network there isn't complicated, the tickets between these two locations have been made complicated because it suits Pricing Managers to have them so.

What is notable is that XC managed to change all their Off Peaks to a "not before 0930" restriction which is dead simple, aside from the perennial question of whether 0930 itself is restricted or not, because I always forget that. Yet nobody else has done that. Why?

It may be simple but having to pay double for a ticket from Holyhead to Oxford when travelling on the 09:23 which doesn't even get near a Voyager until gone lunchtime is ridiculous. Scotrail simplified things properly. The day that Voyagers are replaced by proper trains on XC and the fares dropped to sensible levels I will throw a raucous party.

If we’re going to have railcards at all then let’s have the same discounts, conditions and restrictions for them all (with the exception of the disabled persons one) so the only difference is at the point of purchase of the railcard.

Yes, like the Swiss Half Fare Card. No silly rules, no odd discrepancies between 16-25 and 26-30, no giving discounts to 60 year old Finance Directors while making the minimum wage intern pay a minimum fare. Just have a national railcard available to all (other than the Disabled one which should differ by allowing a companion). You can discount the purchase price for students or pensioners if you like, but as soon as it is paid for it is a standard product.

Indeed, the first change to the fares system should be that the people enforcing it actually know how to do their jobs...

It would be a lot easier to teach if there was less to cover. On my Guards' course we spent an entire day on railcards and all the differences between them. If we didn't have to devote that day to that aspect of complexity we might have been able to devote some time to what can and can't be excessed.

 

[styles]

A key benefit of contactless is that that isn't true any more, though, provided you stay within the area. It's more like the shop - you carry out your intentions and are retrospectively charged based on what you did. It differs from the shop in that it can be harder to see up front what the prices are, though. In that sense it's more like ordering in a pub - most people don't ask how much individual beers are, you ask for what you want, they pour it and then you pay for it and go and drink it. Occasionally the landlord will warn you if you pick a particularly expensive option, but not always. But you can't, unlike on the railway, order a pint of Carling, go and drink a pint of Landlord and get prosecuted for it - of course it would be theft to do that for which you could be prosecuted, but because the landlord serves the drinks and not you yourself the situation can't arise by accident.

Drawback being, contactless often doesn't result in the cheapest fare being paid. No split tickets, people not knowing they need to tap on pink readers, etc.

 

[JonathanH]

Not many people check the fare with contactless. They just assume it'll be reasonable.

Clearly not, but as it extends further there becomes more of a need to do so. It is part of the problem of it having extended out from the centre of London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The network there isn't complicated, the tickets between these two locations have been made complicated because it suits Pricing Managers to have them so.

Indeed.

In a serious country, this would be part of the city joint-tariff system (Verbundtarif) and there would be one single fare regardless of operator (which would also be the same for tram or bus). Or at worst, the InterCity trains (one per hour, the TPE Scotland service*) might be excluded but the others would not.

* The other TPEs that serve the Airport and the TfW service are not InterCity style operations with long gaps between stops, they are regional expresses.

 

[The exile]

Just have a national railcard available to all (other than the Disabled one which should differ by allowing a companion).

Would suggest also that it always permit onboard purchase (certainly if travelling alone) to ease some of the accessibility issues associated with tvms

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Oct 2025 ==

Indeed.

In a serious country, this would be part of the city joint-tariff system (Verbundtarif) and there would be one single fare regardless of operator. Or at worst, the InterCity trains (one per hour, the TPE Scotland service) might be excluded but the others would not.

Precisely!

 

[blimmo]

It would be a lot easier to teach if there was less to cover. On my Guards' course we spent an entire day on railcards and all the differences between them. If we didn't have to devote that day to that aspect of complexity we might have been able to devote some time to what can and can't be excessed.

I am in favour of removing railcards or at least unifying the various types but I have very little sympathy for the TOCs not training their revenue staff properly because there's a lot to teach. The passenger is expected to learn their part of the ticketing system (under threat of prosecution), if it takes an extra day to teach the guards then the training will simply have to be a day longer.

The network there isn't complicated, the tickets between these two locations have been made complicated because it suits Pricing Managers to have them so.

This once again goes back to the railway pricing tickets to maximise revenue. This complexity certainly should be removed imo but I don't think this covers everything. Off peak time restrictions for example often need to be complex as you illustrated in your Oxford to Holyhead example.

There is no suggestion with Contactless that you shouldn't check the fare before travelling.

If you have to check the fare before travelling you almost may as well buy the ticket then (I appreciate there is still the advantage of being able to change routeing etc.). I often find the different fares for different routes with contactless are very difficult to work out in much the same way as routeing for a traditional ticket. When there's the possibility of paying £20 more if I tap wrong there's almost as much jeopardy as with traditional tickets (excluding the criminal possibilities).

 

[WAB]

People don't want complexity, but there are plenty of restrictions which are in favour of the customer.

Would passengers in the north favour the removal of cheaper Northern-only fares? Probably not. Would longer-distance passengers on CrossCountry favour even higher loadings on Leeds to York if the fares are no longer restricted by TOC? Probably not.

I'd happily volunteer to go through the route and TOC restrictions and work out if they make commercial and operational sense on today's railway, though...

 

[JonathanH]

People don't want complexity, but there are plenty of restrictions which are in favour of the customer.

Would passengers in the north favour the removal of cheaper Northern-only fares? Probably not. Would longer-distance passengers on CrossCountry favour even higher loadings on Leeds to York if the fares are no longer restricted by TOC? Probably not.

Arguably it isn't in favour of the passenger. Passengers typically desire the faster train to have capacity for them to make the journey at the lowest cost, and the fastest time, leaving room on the slower trains for passengers joining and leaving at the intermediate stations.

The restrictions effectively recognise that there is some spare capacity on the slower trains and not so much spare capacity on the faster ones.

There is nothing inherently in the customer's favour about having access to slower trains at cheaper fares. It is an artifical construct (although it may be true that the local train is cheaper to provide).

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is nothing inherently in the customer's favour about having access to slower trains at cheaper fares.

If we accept that this is the real world and the ideal of the fast train being cheap isn't happening, it very much is. It segments the market.

 

[JonathanH]

If we accept that this is the real world and the ideal of the fast train being cheap isn't happening, it very much is. It segments the market.

Yes, but in a seemingly perverse way.

 

[Krokodil]

This once again goes back to the railway pricing tickets to maximise revenue

More than that, it goes back to individual TOCs trying to expand their shares of the pie. Even though the entire pie has ultimately gone to the same place for the last five years.

Off peak time restrictions for example often need to be complex as you illustrated in your Oxford to Holyhead example.

There still remains a policy choice. The other option is the Scotrail one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Oct 2025 ==

Indeed.

In a serious country, this would be part of the city joint-tariff system (Verbundtarif) and there would be one single fare regardless of operator (which would also be the same for tram or bus). Or at worst, the InterCity trains (one per hour, the TPE Scotland service*) might be excluded but the others would not.

* The other TPEs that serve the Airport and the TfW service are not InterCity style operations with long gaps between stops, they are regional expresses.

This is actually within the gift of GMPTE to solve. They set the interavailable fares. They could lower them (and it doesn't have to be much to avoid the passengers paying more) and ask the operators to withdraw their fares.

 

[Titfield]

Yes, but that wasn't my point: a through ticket from Sofia to Heathrow to JFK will be cheaper than a through ticket just from Heathrow to JFK. Same seat on the same plane, just cheaper.

Of course the aviation industry won't let you 'start short' so you actually have to go to Sofia first.

But you can finish short if it is a return ticket.

 

[WestAnglian]

Paracetamol being sold as tablets, caplets, capsules, cough mixture, soluble, with caffeine added...?

But they'd really be different products ratger than just different 'fulfilment' methods.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But you can finish short if it is a return ticket.

Only if you don't check your bag. And if you do it too often they'll pursue it, by doing stuff like zeroing frequent flyer miles.

 

[styles]

But you can finish short if it is a return ticket.

This is known in airline parlance as 'skiplagging', and can see you barred from airlines, have air miles cancelled, or even end up being sued (though this generally fails).