Compensation from TFL

[Bunting14]

I got caught up in the District Line signalling problems at Barking yesterday and was stuck on a train for over an hour. As a result i missed my booked train on the 12.29 from St Pancras to Nottingham and had to pay for the next train.

Is there any way i can get a refund from TFL for this extra cost and if so what is the best way of trying to get the fare back?

 

[MikeWh]

Can you confirm what tickets you had. Was it a ticket from St Pancras to Nottingham and Oyster PAYG for the Underground, or was it a through ticket including Underground travel?

 

[Bunting14]

Oyster from Upminster Bridge to KX/St P and advance ticket from ST Pancras.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Did you ask anybody before boarding, or whilst on board, if you could use your Advance ticket? Or did you simply choose to buy a new ticket at St Pancras before boarding?

The industry secret iKB says this:

Q22 - Can a passenger travel on any trains other than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?

A: The following principles apply.

1). Start of the Journey. It is the passenger’s responsibility to turn up at the start of the journey in time for the first train. If they miss it due to problems parking, taxi not turning up etc, they must buy a new ticket;

2). Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the rail industry or its partners (as shown below) is at fault, which should be checked with your Control Office, change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of combinations of rail tickets held. Examples are:

Included: are passengers travelling on valid:

Through domestic or international tickets; e.g. Brighton - Scarborough route “+TOC X & Connections”;
Through rail & partner tickets for which there is a through bus, tube, ferry or metro fare, e.g. Zone U12 - Leeds, Wisbech Coach - York; Ryde Pier - Hull, etc;
Combination of domestic rail-only tickets
e.g. rail season ticket Skipton-Leeds plus Advance ticket Leeds-Peterborough; or adjoining Advance tickets;

Combination of domestic rail & partner tickets
e.g. Brighton - Zone U12 plus Advance ticket London-Manchester, or

e.g. Advance ticket Bristol-Paddington plus tube single ticket plus Advance ticket Kings Cross to Hull.

All-Zones Travelcard, PTE-products etc (where rail is included) plus Advance ticket;

Combination of Eurostar tickets into the UK and then either advance purchase tickets from London Terminals or “London Intnl CIV” or “Lndon Eurostar CIV”.
Not included: for the avoidance of doubt, are:

Non train-company travel on separate tickets e.g. journeys that commence on bus-only, tube-only, ferry-only or metro-only tickets. (This includes “PlusBus” which is a local day- Rover bus ticket, not compatible with a medium/ long distance ‘Advance’ single journey, so are kept as separate tickets); or
Tickets that cannot be read on-train e.g. smartcards (but allowable where electronically checked, delay verified and Advance ticket endorsed in Travel Centres).

If EMT ticket office staff or platform staff forced you to buy a new ticket, it may be worthwhile complaining to EMT, as they could have endorsed your ticket at the ticket office. The general principle bb21 states below is correct.

 

[bb21]

In that case, if your service was delayed by 15 minutes or more, you are entitled to receive compensation for the amount of your Oyster PAYG single fare.

No compensation is due for the additional ticket you purchased. How much did you pay for your additional ticket?

Had you purchased a through ticket from Zone U1256 Londn, or a paper single ticket, you would have been allowed travel on the next train from St Pancras.

 

[Bunting14]

I went to the main booking hall at St Pancras and explained the situation and asked whether i could get anything back for my unused ticket. I was told no and so purchased a single ticket for £58.50.

So it looks like i might have a very slim chance with EMT in getting some money back and perhaps my fare back from TFL.

 

[bb21]

Unfortunately with Oyster PAYG, you don't really have a claim. You could try writing them a letter a asking, to both LU and EMT, but it would be entirely at their discretion so don't count on it.

You could have purchased the return ticket for £1 more and it would be valid for any journey back to London in the following month (subject to normal time restrictions).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Next time you are in this situation, make sure that you buy a through U-zone ticket I mentioned above. It is slightly more expensive than Oyster PAYG, but you are covered in the event of delays.

Alternatively what you could do in a similar event is to ask the guard before you board the train. If you explain your situation the guard may well allow you to travel for no extra charge. Ticket office staff do not have this discretion however. If the guard says no, the worst that will happen is that you will be charged the cheapest walk-on fare valid on that service, so you are not gaining anything by buying from the ticket office. But make sure that you ask before you board. If you just board and wait for him to come around, you are much less likely to see discretion being used.

At other stations barriers can prevent you from gaining access to the train, hence the guard, unless you have the correct Advance ticket. St Pancras High Level is not one. The gates will allow any Advance ticket on the correct route and date through, regardless of the train it is for.

 

[Haywain]

At other stations barriers can prevent you from gaining access to the train, hence the guard, unless you have the correct Advance ticket. St Pancras High Level is not one.

It's a side issue, but how do the barriers know which train the Advance ticket is booked on? And which stations do you believe operate in this way?

 

[bb21]

It's a side issue, but how do the barriers know which train the Advance ticket is booked on? And which stations do you believe operate in this way?

Victoria is an example. Gates are (or certainly were) set to reject all Advance tickets and staff then require you to show the reservation coupon as you pass the manual barrier.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Barking is a joint station (TfL and National Rail). As you were delayed due to a train hold up, under the discretion allowed with Advance tickets, you would normally have been allowed to travel by a later train. You don't say whether you asked and refused, or simply paid for another ticket on the basis that you'd missed your booked train hut it would be useful to establish this.

 

[bb21]

Barking is a joint station (TfL and National Rail). As you were delayed due to a train hold up, under the discretion allowed with Advance tickets, you would normally have been allowed to travel by a later train. You don't say whether you asked and refused, or simply paid for another ticket on the basis that you'd missed your booked train hut it would be useful to establish this.

That is an interesting interpretation, and one I have certainly not heard of before, but one more favourable to the passenger than what we already know.

Is there anything we can refer to if needed? Does this equally apply to delays on the Underground and National Rail? I assume this would not apply if the delay occurred at somewhere like Stepney Green even if travelling from Barking?

 

[yorkie]

I went to the main booking hall at St Pancras and explained the situation and asked whether i could get anything back for my unused ticket. I was told no and so purchased a single ticket for £58.50.

So it looks like i might have a very slim chance with EMT in getting some money back and perhaps my fare back from TFL.

Next time, I'd do one of the following:

1) Use Oyster PAYG from Upminster (not LU Upminster Bridge) on c2c, ensuring that I touched in with plenty of time to spare before the last valid connection for the through journey, or
2) If I had to travel from Upminster Bridge, I would purchase an Advance from Zone U1256 Londn

In either of these cases you'd be covered!

However, what I'd have done when the ticket office refused to apply discretion, would be to thank them and not cause a scene, but simply walk away and go to the gateline (perhaps not directly if it was in view of the ticket office). I'd then approach the Guard and explain the situation. Many Guards would apply discretion. If they do not, the charge is exactly the same on board in these particular circumstances - so you'd have nothing to lose.

Most Train Companies won't be so pernickety about using Oyster PAYG to start your journey on LU (starting on LU is fine on a paper ticket; starting on PAYG is fine if using National Rail, but not the two together :roll, but EMT clearly are, so the other alternative is to avoid EMT - it can be both quicker and/or cheaper to use East Coast, and even if not, you'll be more likely to be treated as a valued customer.

By the way it's not entirely clear what your planned itinerary was, nor what train(s) were delayed. If it was, in fact, a c2c train that was delayed, or your journey included travel on c2c, you might actually have a claim.

While we know that an LU journey starting on Oyster PAYG isn't covered, while starting your journey on National Rail (but then optionally using LU) is covered, it's not clear what the situation would be if your journey was LU > National Rail > LU > National Rail, which I'm guessing it might have been, if you were changing at Barking?

Of course, I agree with thedbdiboy's interpretation if you were using c2c for part of your journey, but sadly the documentation isn't quite up to scratch, so EMT might take a different view.

I am happy to proof read any letter of appeal, but I'd want to know more about your exact planned itinerary first!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Were you at Barking station by 1120? (or at Upminster station by 1112?) If you were, I believe you have a valid claim.

If you were not, but set off from Upminster Bridge in good time to be at either Barking by 1120 or Upminster by 1112, then I'd also say you should have a valid claim but that will be very much open to interpretation.

 

[Bunting14]

Thanks for the replies.

My plan was to get either a District Line from Upminster Bridge to Aldgate E and get a H AND C to Kings Cross or do the short hop to Upminster and get a C2C to Fenchurch Street and get a Circle line from Tower Hill. I missed the Upminster train by seconds so got the District towards London which turned up about a minute later. So all of my journey was by Underground.

if I had less time at St Pancras I would have got the next train to Nottingham without buying another ticket and paid on the train or hoped there was no ticket inspection. Also you hear lots of stories on this forum about people who don't have a valid ticket getting a penalty fare but as I had 40 minutes to spare I went to the booking office.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for the replies.

My plan was to get either a District Line from Upminster Bridge to Aldgate E and get a H AND C to Kings Cross or do the short hop to Upminster and get a C2C to Fenchurch Street and get a Circle line from Tower Hill. I missed the Upminster train by seconds so got the District towards London which turned up about a minute later. So all of my journey was by Underground.

if I had less time at St Pancras I would have got the next train to Nottingham without buying another ticket and paid on the train or hoped there was no ticket inspection.

As I don't know what time you were at any of the stations, I can't really comment on how much of a case you may have.

Also you hear lots of stories on this forum about people who don't have a valid ticket getting a penalty fare but as I had 40 minutes to spare I went to the booking office.

If you take the wrong train on an Advance ticket, and the customer is deemed to be 'at fault', the charge is for a new ticket at the appropriate rate (ie, Super Off Peak if travelling at a time when the Super Off Peak is valid) including any relevant Railcard discounts.

The full fare, or a Penalty Fare, cannot be charged in those circumstances.