Compensation for early running?

[matthewmacleod]

I was rather surprised this evening when I arrived on the platform at (Glasgow) Charing Cross to find the 19:39 to Springburn pulling away about two minutes early, leaving me to miss the 20:00 GLQ-EDB. Checked the iPhone app to make sure it wasn't my eyes, and it confirmed an early departure.

Obviously the resulting 30-minute delay is hardly serious, and I wouldn't be entitled to any compensation anyway. But if I'd been travelling to Inverness or Oban or something, it could have been a right pain.

So it got me thinking: what are the rules and conventions on compensation for delays or missed connections caused by early running? I imagine any stranded passenger would be entitled to the usual guarantees offered by the TOC, but what about advance tickets or delay repay?

(Of course, I'd generally expect people to arrive a little earlier for their train!)

 

[wes_donze]

had a similar one at Stratford (London) on Sunday when train to Colchester left early and had to wait 20 minutes for next service - I was not the only one disappointed at this

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Not an answer to your questions, but just an observation: quite a few times when waiting at Queen Street Low level eastbound for an Edinburgh stopper I have been aware of trains arriving a couple of minutes early and waiting there until the departure time. It hadn't actually occurred to me until I read your post there that these trains must have left a bit sharp from at least Charing Cross and possibly other stops before.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Not an answer to your questions, but just an observation: quite a few times when waiting at Queen Street Low level eastbound for an Edinburgh stopper I have been aware of trains arriving a couple of minutes early and waiting there until the departure time. It hadn't actually occurred to me until I read your post there that these trains must have left a bit sharp from at least Charing Cross and possibly other stops before.

As far as I can see, (Monday-Friday at least) 3/4 of all off-peak Glasgow Queen St Low Level-Edinburgh services are booked to wait for 3 minutes in GLQ station as standard, the other 1/4 have one minute booked standing.

 

[Mojo]

I was offered compensation by CrossCountry Trains back in May 2008 when one of their services departed four minutes early and I missed it. I didn't take them up on their offer as an alternative Toc was offering a service to my destination four minutes later (scheduled, so actually 8 Min after the XC departed) so my actual delay was only a few minutes.

 

[TEW]

SWT paid me compensation when their service left 3 minutes early delaying me by over an hour in 2010.

 

[deltic1989]

EMT Refunded me a £60 taxi fare from Nottingham to Lincoln when the last train left early.

 

[34D]

So it got me thinking: what are the rules and conventions on compensation for delays or missed connections caused by early running? I imagine any stranded passenger would be entitled to the usual guarantees offered by the TOC, but what about advance tickets or delay repay?

(Of course, I'd generally expect people to arrive a little earlier for their train!)

I would expect that the rules are the same as normal, ie the passenger intended to get the 19:27 train, which he couldn't get due to issues within the control of the railway, so he has to get the 19:57 train.... His arrival time at his final destination should have been 20:30 but was actually 21:00 (or whatever the exact times are).

Either way, I'd say that this ought to be reported to scotrail, and I would expect that even if not entitled to vouchers officially that they would send some.

Early running (buses/trains) is a pet hate of mine!

 

[dave55uk]

Whilst early running is not to be condoned, I would expect intending passengers to arrive at the station at least 5 minutes before the train is due to depart.

 

[Mojo]

Whilst early running is not to be condoned, I would expect intending passengers to arrive at the station at least 5 minutes before the train is due to depart.

The standard connection time for most stations is 5 Min, so in a lot of cases it is not possible to arrive "at least 5 Min beforehand." I have missed a +5 connection before because the train from my origin was 3 Min late.

Further, many people are late through no fault of their own and this cannot be helped, although people can take mitigation measures wherever possible. I try and avoid travelling by bus at all times, but where this is not possible I'd always travel on the bus before the bus that arrives at least 10 Min before the train is due (where the timetable allows for this).

Finally, in my instance I often used to arrive early and sit in the car in the station car park, until a few Min before the timetabled time. I knew how long it would take to reach the platform. That wasn't what caused it to be missed that day; I just planned myself to be on the platform around 4 Min before departure and saw the train with all doors closed.

 

[Greenback]

I always try and leave a margin and hope to arrive in good time for any train I catch, but as Mojo says things can and do go wrong for a multitude of reasons.

Also, of course, I will tend to try and get to the station earlier if there is an infrequent service, but I'm not so bothered if there is a train every 10-15 minutes.

 

[6Gman]

Whilst early running is not to be condoned, I would expect intending passengers to arrive at the station at least 5 minutes before the train is due to depart.

Why?

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

 

[Class377/5]

Why?

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Because most people need to get a ticket, get onto the platform and don't realise the time is when its leaving the station not arriving. Advising a minimum of 5mins is sensible if not more time depending on the station.

 

[TEW]

But if you turn up 1 minute before departure time you don't expect the train to be half way down the platform already.

 

[Flamingo]

No, but the doors will be getting locked 20 seconds after you have set foot in the station...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyway, to answer the OP, it depends on the indviduals delay, but I can vouch from personal experience that Control take a dim view of trains leaving early (I've inadvertently done it once or twice when amended timetables were in play), and have had some sharp phone-calls from them along the lines of "You muppet!"

 

[matthewmacleod]

Cheers guys, good to see that TOCs generally seem to support passengers in that situation.

As far as I can see, (Monday-Friday at least) 3/4 of all off-peak Glasgow Queen St Low Level-Edinburgh services are booked to wait for 3 minutes in GLQ station as standard, the other 1/4 have one minute booked standing.

Yeah, that seems to be the case. I've noticed there's a lot of padding at the inner Glasgow stations on the approach from the west in particular.

 

[mailman]

Because most people need to get a ticket, get onto the platform and don't realise the time is when its leaving the station not arriving. Advising a minimum of 5mins is sensible if not more time depending on the station.

Whats the point of a time table if trains are going to leave BEFORE their published departure time?

And what if a train leaves 6 minutes early? Should passengers then get to stations 10 minutes before the published departure times?

Box of pandora's fluffy bits being opened here

Mailman

 

[jon0844]

I would regard an Intercity train as being more like an airline and aim to get there in plenty of time. For a routine commuter train, I'd not expect it to leave early (and by that I mean 1 minute or more) in any circumstances.

The exception might be at the originating station, but not once it's on its way. In fact, I can only imagine it ever being held up because people are boarding/alighting for longer than the scheduled dwell time. If it has arrived at a station ahead of time, it should wait.

And that does happen nearly all the time, but not always - and especially not during engineering work where the working timetable might be different to the public timetable - with mistakes having been made in the past that have caused trains to be scheduled to leave 10 minutes earlier on the WTT.. (FCC at Blackfriars a few years back) or, also FCC, when the last minute cancellation of the bus replacement service saw the timetable kept for the train. It meant a 10-15 minute wait at Potters Bar! On one night, the driver didn't wait and left early.. but the following night, it DID wait. My goodness, I bet the passengers were happy with that!

 

[dave55uk]

Mailman. Would you turn up at an airport, intending to catch a flight, 1 minute before the check-in desk closed? Going back to the trains, how about someone turning up immediately before departure, and being a clever-clogs, he/she rushes to the platform. Only to find the platform has been changed and in the <1 minute you have remaining you've got to a) find out where the train is now going to depart from, b) get to that platform (which could involve going up and down steps thronging with other passengers), and c) actually getting on board the train before the doors are closed for a punctual departure. Far better to arrive early and wait a bit than miss your train (and the same applies to planes and buses). And who leads such a busy life they cannot afford to wait 5 minutes for a train?

 

[TEW]

If you're catching a train from a simple 2-platform station, you already have your ticket and it isn't any special long distance journey why do you need to waste 5 minutes of your time waiting for the train. If the timetable says the train departs at a certain time what is wrong with turning up 1 minute before that time. I have no problem missing a train because I haven't left enough time, if the train leaves on time, because it's my own fault.

 

[radamfi]

Early running is viable in the UK because there is a no connection policy. Obviously if you carefully plan the timetable so that many people can travel without waiting long periods of time for connecting trains along the Swiss/Dutch/German etc. model, you can't run trains early unless all connecting trains arrive sufficiently early.

Indeed, is the ability to run trains early a good reason not to adopt a well planned connecting railway network?

 

[Flamingo]

I think that some people are under the impression that trains are being run early on purpose by TOC's for their own nefarious ends.

Except in certain very rare circumstances authorised by control, trains running early are invariably because of human error on the part of dispatch staff and / or traincrew, and a very dim view is taken of it by management.

 

[TEW]

Indeed, it's not a problem at the moment. Some people on this thread seem to be advocating running trains early though, something I just can't understand. What is the point of having a timetable if the trains don't even try and stick to it.

 

[jon0844]

Mailman. Would you turn up at an airport, intending to catch a flight, 1 minute before the check-in desk closed?

I don't think that comparison quite works. More like flying and arriving at the gate at exactly the time it says on your boarding card that boarding will begin and finding you get there at that time and it's too late to board.

Nobody could arrive at check in 1 minute before and expect to get to the gate, through security, in that time! But I can see how I might arrive at Hatfield, with my ticket in my hand, to get a train from platform 1 and not expect to see it leaving early. But in almost ten years, it's never happened either!

Trains rarely run early in my experience, compared to buses.

 

[Greenback]

Early running is viable in the UK because there is a no connection policy. Obviously if you carefully plan the timetable so that many people can travel without waiting long periods of time for connecting trains along the Swiss/Dutch/German etc. model, you can't run trains early unless all connecting trains arrive sufficiently early.

Indeed, is the ability to run trains early a good reason not to adopt a well planned connecting railway network?

Trains leaving early do not do so deliberately. Just like the train that I was on that left Zutphen before its proper scheduled departure time in Feb 2008. That must have been a mistake as well, as I can vouch for the fact that the connecting train did not run early.

Despite your assertions, things do run out of turn on other railways. Perhaps statistically less than in the UK due to better investment down the years, but they are not perfect.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nobody could arrive at check in 1 minute before and expect to get to the gate, through security, in that time! But I can see how I might arrive at Hatfield, with my ticket in my hand, to get a train from platform 1 and not expect to see it leaving early. But in almost ten years, it's never happened either!

Trains rarely run early in my experience, compared to buses.

Quite so. My train to work has never left early in four years, but I know it happens from time to time. I think it is one of those things that if or when it happens and you do miss a train you just have to grit your teeth and put it down to human error.

 

[northwichcat]

Whilst early running is not to be condoned, I would expect intending passengers to arrive at the station at least 5 minutes before the train is due to depart.

Is that if they have a ticket or if they need to purchase a ticket?

Also if you know the station and which platform your train is going to depart from and it's the one closest to the entrance then you don't need as much time as if it's the one furthest from the entrance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Trains rarely run early in my experience, compared to buses.

It used to happen at Knutsford and Hale quite frequently before Mobberley and Ashley had their request stop status' removed.

 

[bb21]

Mailman. Would you turn up at an airport, intending to catch a flight, 1 minute before the check-in desk closed?

I'm sorry but your comparison does not work.

If I arrive at the check-in desk 1 minute before it is due to close, for whatever reason, I still expect to be checked in.

This would be a more compatible comparison.

I don't agree that people should plan to arrive a very short time before the train is due to depart, however if a passenger arrives a very short time before the train is due to depart then he/she should be in a position of catching that train, not finding that it has pulled away ahead of schedule.

 

[185]

South West trains paid my taxi when 1) Weymouth had locked the station up 5 mins early, and 2) the last train out had set off three early.

Was quite a long distance taxi, too.

 

[317666]

had a similar one at Stratford (London) on Sunday when train to Colchester left early and had to wait 20 minutes for next service - I was not the only one disappointed at this

I missed a 315 at Stratford after it left two minutes early. Next one was only ten, well twelve minutes behind (as the one I was aiming for left early), but it was still a bit annoying and there was no reason for its early departure as far as I could see.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Is 5 minutes really that big of a deal for people?

I have missed trains in the past because I have arrived at the station to find the level crossing barriers (the only way to cross to the opposite platform) down, and watched my (intended) train arrive and depart, all for the sake of arriving a couple of minutes earlier.

There are so many things that could delay your way to the train, by even the smallest amount of time, that arriving a minimum of 5 minutes - realistically closer to 4 minutes - before your trains scheduled departure time is, surely, plain common sense?