Compensation for additional train ticket due to strike

[phoenix1589]

Hi,

I had a return journey from London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street booked on Avanti West Coast services outbound on 10th August, returning on 13th August. Whilst booked as a return journey, it was actually 2 Advanced Single tickets (and for completeness, it was 1 adult 1 child with a Friends & Family Railcard). Although it was for travel with Avanti, it was booked via the LNER website.

Saturday 13th became a strike day, so we were obviously unable to travel. As this was part of a planned trip, there was no option to travel back on the Sunday without incurring significant expense (hotel in Liverpool) and I wasn't interested in shortening our trip to what would have been only 1 full day in Liverpool.

I was able to get a lift with some family to stay on Saturday night however this was ~2 hour car journey so returning to Liverpool to use the train ticket wasn't feasible. Instead I purchased another Advanced Single from Doncaster to London Kings X (for completeness, I then also purchased an Advanced Single from Wakefield to Doncaster, due to miscommunication on which station I could get dropped off at). Avanti don't run services Wakefield/Doncaster to London and whilst I could have traveled from Liverpool a day later, I presumed the original ticket wouldn't also be valid on a different ToC / from a different station.

These new tickets, although not being used on Avanti services were purchased via the Aventi website.

The original and unused singles cost a total of £20.80, the new tickets cost a total of £31.60 - I don't want to be out of pocket and have contacted Avanti asking for a compensation for the extra £31.60. I haven't submitted a refund via LNER for the original tickets as I figure if I do, Avanti would claim they can't pay compensation against refunded tickets. However, the concern and query to you guys is if Avanti take longer than 28 days to reply (I suspect they will have a rather large backlog of queries like this) and say "No" I am out of the 28 day refund window when I can request a refund on the unused tickets and would then be £31.60 rather than just £10.80 out of pocket. None of the strike info has ever made any reference to consequential loss only refund price paid so I don't know how likely they are to pay anyway.

Any thoughts on the best next steps? I have no issue just waiting for Avanti to reply and then going to the Rail Ombudsman if they say no - but given the 28 day limit on a refund of the unused ticket I don't want to let that pass if it's the 'right thing' to do.

Cheers.

 

[Wallsendmag]

By far your easiest route is to refund the original tickets. I doubt Avanti would refund you the rest. and for the sake of £10 is it worth it?

 

[Haywain]

As you did not contact Avanti at the time and require them to reroute you, I don't see that you have much of a claim for compensation. As it stands you can get £20.80 back quite easily but you'll have to consider how much you value your time to fight for another £10.80.

 

[Watershed]

Hi,

I had a return journey from London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street booked on Avanti West Coast services outbound on 10th August, returning on 13th August. Whilst booked as a return journey, it was actually 2 Advanced Single tickets (and for completeness, it was 1 adult 1 child with a Friends & Family Railcard). Although it was for travel with Avanti, it was booked via the LNER website.

Saturday 13th became a strike day, so we were obviously unable to travel. As this was part of a planned trip, there was no option to travel back on the Sunday without incurring significant expense (hotel in Liverpool) and I wasn't interested in shortening our trip to what would have been only 1 full day in Liverpool.

I was able to get a lift with some family to stay on Saturday night however this was ~2 hour car journey so returning to Liverpool to use the train ticket wasn't feasible. Instead I purchased another Advanced Single from Doncaster to London Kings X (for completeness, I then also purchased an Advanced Single from Wakefield to Doncaster, due to miscommunication on which station I could get dropped off at). Avanti don't run services Wakefield/Doncaster to London and whilst I could have traveled from Liverpool a day later, I presumed the original ticket wouldn't also be valid on a different ToC / from a different station.

These new tickets, although not being used on Avanti services were purchased via the Aventi website.

The original and unused singles cost a total of £20.80, the new tickets cost a total of £31.60 - I don't want to be out of pocket and have contacted Avanti asking for a compensation for the extra £31.60. I haven't submitted a refund via LNER for the original tickets as I figure if I do, Avanti would claim they can't pay compensation against refunded tickets. However, the concern and query to you guys is if Avanti take longer than 28 days to reply (I suspect they will have a rather large backlog of queries like this) and say "No" I am out of the 28 day refund window when I can request a refund on the unused tickets and would then be £31.60 rather than just £10.80 out of pocket. None of the strike info has ever made any reference to consequential loss only refund price paid so I don't know how likely they are to pay anyway.

Any thoughts on the best next steps? I have no issue just waiting for Avanti to reply and then going to the Rail Ombudsman if they say no - but given the 28 day limit on a refund of the unused ticket I don't want to let that pass if it's the 'right thing' to do.

Cheers.

It's a rather unfortunate set of circumstances, since you actually would have been able to travel back from Liverpool on the Saturday, by travelling using EMR via Sheffield into St Pancras or via Peterborough onto a GTR/LNER service into Kings Cross.

And you would have been entitled to require Avanti to reroute you this way (free of charge), in view of the cancellation of all their trains - meaning that you'd otherwise have had to wait until the Sunday.

It's unclear whether you would have been entitled to be re-routed so as to travel from Doncaster/Wakefield.

In the circumstances, I think you are probably best off claiming a refund and raising a complaint, with a view to maybe getting a goodwill gesture for the difference.

Incidentally, whilst the NRCoT and most retailers do say that there's a 28 day limit to claiming a refund when there's disruption, this limit is not applicable if the disruption would have caused a delay of more than an hour (if you had still travelled).

This is because you have a statutory right, under the PRO, to receive a refund (as an alternative to the right to re-routeing mentioned above). The PRO state that conditions of carriage cannot reduce or limit your rights; therefore the normal civil statute of limitations applies (6 years).

So I would have said there is probably little to be lost by waiting for Avanti to respond, and if necessary taking it to the Ombudsman. But I wouldn't hold out huge prospects of success.

 

[northwichcat]

a total of £20.80, the new tickets cost a total of £31.60 - I don't want to be out of pocket and have contacted Avanti asking for a compensation for the extra £31.60.

I expect the answer will be no.

Alternative options would have been available e.g. another permitted route or acceptance of ticket on a non-strike day. If you reject those options and make your own alternative plans, I don't think they have to compensate you. Especially when the disruption is due to industrial action.

On certain ticket selling sites you might see an option for insuring your travel. In most cases you'll never need this but in your case it perhaps could have been useful, as this can include pay outs for things the train operator won't cover.

I haven't submitted a refund via LNER for the original tickets

Did you book through LNER for a cashback deal? If you did the cashback will be declined if you request a refund.

 

[phoenix1589]

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies.

I get that it is 'only £10', and the only reason for deciding to get Advanced tickets for the Sunday (even though it was more inconvenient, and I was hoping Avanti would refund) is because that's a lot easier to stomach than being out of pocket for what could have been nearer to £100 for the walk-up fare - but I'd still rather not be out of pocket for any of it.

It's a rather unfortunate set of circumstances, since you actually would have been able to travel back from Liverpool on the Saturday, by travelling using EMR via Sheffield into St Pancras or via Peterborough onto a GTR/LNER service into Kings Cross.

I didn't think that would have been an option, especially with the generic news advice / statements - "There are no trains, do not travel at all". Looking at e.g. this train, that would have been a good option.

And you would have been entitled to require Avanti to reroute you this way (free of charge), in view of the cancellation of all their trains - meaning that you'd otherwise have had to wait until the Sunday.

If it was just me, rather than with a child I might have been tempted to turn up with my ticket and seen what options were presented. The idea of trying to do that with a child who would get bored/hungry/not want to wait around for ages make it significantly less appealing - from above and with hindsight yes, that would have been fine.

Alternative options would have been available e.g. another permitted route or acceptance of ticket on a non-strike day. If you reject those options and make your own alternative plans, I don't think they have to compensate you. Especially when the disruption is due to industrial action.

Postponing travel to Sunday from Liverpool would have resulted in needing a hotel locally - this would have cost more than the ~£30 Sunday train ticket. Cancelling the whole trip, I can imagine I'd then be struggling to get a refund for the unused outbound (Advanced Single, not on a strike day - so I imagine they would not want to refund that). Travelling back on the previous day, would have wasted the Friday night accomodation in Liverpool (and makes the whole trip less appealing for what would have been 1 full day).

Did you book through LNER for a cashback deal? If you did the cashback will be declined if you request a refund.

I did use the LNER site as I had a credit card cashback rate available, not getting the cashback is not part of the thought process at this stage. I haven't (yet) submitted a refund via LNER because I don't want to give Avanti the change to say "We would have compensated you the full amount, but as you refunded your original ticket, we no longer have any obligation to you" rather than "I want to get the cashback"

 

[northwichcat]

The booked hotel is one reason why insurance could be beneficial. You don't have to buy it from a train ticketing site. You can normally get annual travel cover for Europe (including UK) for only a few pounds more than it costs to insure a single holiday. Although, you can also usually get hotel bookings that would include free cancellation/change of date if done no later than 24-72 hours before arrival. Just something worth considering for the future.

The cashback is something worth remembering when considering what the actual loss is, if things don't go as you hope. I didn't think you'd mind losing something like £2.50 if you get £30 back.

 

[Watershed]

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies.

I get that it is 'only £10', and the only reason for deciding to get Advanced tickets for the Sunday (even though it was more inconvenient, and I was hoping Avanti would refund) is because that's a lot easier to stomach than being out of pocket for what could have been nearer to £100 for the walk-up fare - but I'd still rather not be out of pocket for any of it.

£10 may be a small sum to some people but it might not be to you. Either way, it's completely understandable if you do want to pursue it.

I didn't think that would have been an option, especially with the generic news advice / statements - "There are no trains, do not travel at all". Looking at e.g. this train, that would have been a good option.

Evidently these press releases have achieved their desired effect

If it was just me, rather than with a child I might have been tempted to turn up with my ticket and seen what options were presented. The idea of trying to do that with a child who would get bored/hungry/not want to wait around for ages make it significantly less appealing - from above and with hindsight yes, that would have been fine.

To be clear, whilst that would (in theory) have been one option, it would be inadvisable as there is no guarantee there would have been any Avanti staff at the station. What I would have done would be to contact Avanti beforehand (e.g. on Twitter) to establish whether they are going to re-route you.

Then when/if they inevitably refuse to do so, you are on clear grounds to buy new ticket(s) as required to travel via the alternative route, and to recover the cost of doing so from them. You also have the benefit of having everything in writing so there can be no "he said, she said" arguments.

Postponing travel to Sunday from Liverpool would have resulted in needing a hotel locally - this would have cost more than the ~£30 Sunday train ticket. Cancelling the whole trip, I can imagine I'd then be struggling to get a refund for the unused outbound (Advanced Single, not on a strike day - so I imagine they would not want to refund that). Travelling back on the previous day, would have wasted the Friday night accomodation in Liverpool (and makes the whole trip less appealing for what would have been 1 full day).

Whilst you would have had the right to get a refund on both tickets, it's understandable that you may still have wanted to make the journey.

The booked hotel is one reason why insurance could be beneficial. You don't have to buy it from a train ticketing site. You can normally get annual travel cover for Europe (including UK) for only a few pounds more than it costs to insure a single holiday. Although, you can also usually get hotel bookings that would include free cancellation/change of date if done no later than 24-72 hours before arrival. Just something worth considering for the future.

The cashback is something worth remembering when considering what the actual loss is, if things don't go as you hope. I didn't think you'd mind losing something like £2.50 if you get £30 back.

Travel insurance usually does not cover domestic trips unless they involve at least 2 nights' stay. And I am not aware of any policies that will cover you for expenses you're entitled to recover from another party, as would have been the case here if the OP had been refused re-routing.

 

[northwichcat]

Travel insurance usually does not cover domestic trips unless they involve at least 2 nights' stay. And I am not aware of any policies that will cover you for expenses you're entitled to recover from another party, as would have been the case here if the OP had been refused re-routing.

Mine doesn't have the 2 night min you refer to! Policies vary between providers, even two different providers both using AXA can have different terms.

It could have covered a hotel stay if the OP had accepted the refund from the train operator for not running the booked service. But then booking a room offering cancellation/change of date may be a better option if strike action could be expected. You are right that insurers don't cover what you can claim back from other parties.

 

[phoenix1589]

To be clear, whilst that would (in theory) have been one option, it would be inadvisable as there is no guarantee there would have been any Avanti staff at the station. What I would have done would be to contact Avanti beforehand (e.g. on Twitter) to establish whether they are going to re-route you.

Then when/if they inevitably refuse to do so, you are on clear grounds to buy new ticket(s) as required to travel via the alternative route, and to recover the cost of doing so from them. You also have the benefit of having everything in writing so there can be no "he said, she said" arguments.

I would naively presume that, given their website advise was "do not travel" there would not be any point in contacting them to ask what they will do specifically for me. Their public advise was "do not travel" which I followed.

I appreciate from the comment above about the PRO, which lead me to the quote "continuation or re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to the final destination at the earliest opportunity" and also, under article 18 " passengers shall also be offered free of charge hotel or other accommodation, and transport between the railway station and place of accommodation, in cases where a stay of one or more nights becomes necessary or an additional stay becomes necessary, where and when physically possible".

So I guess more fool me not having known the specifics of this regulation in advance

you would have had the right to get a refund on both tickets,

That surprises me a little, although in a good way. I've also found the quote "If one leg of your planned return journey is scheduled to be on a strike date, you’re able to take advantage of our ticket flexibility and refund options for both legs. That’s whether your ticket is a Return and either portion is affected, or if you’ve booked two Single tickets to make up a return journey." - not that I would have wanted to cancel the whole trip even had I known this in advance.

I'm not entirely sure where that leaves me now; given I followed their published advise rather than explicitly demanded what the legislation appears to offer me. Sorting it out myself has likely been a cheaper option, and I kept these as low as possible, which might carry some weight if this has to go to the Ombudsman.

This is because you have a statutory right, under the PRO, to receive a refund (as an alternative to the right to re-routeing mentioned above). The PRO state that conditions of carriage cannot reduce or limit your rights; therefore the normal civil statute of limitations applies (6 years).

I presume that this would then apply to Avanti (as the train provider of the route on my ticket) rather than LNER who were only the ticket agent? In which case, whilst it might be easier to request a refund via LNER that would make my choice (a) under Article 16 which then might make it harder to get the full amount I'm asking.

This is all really useful info to know 'for the next time'.

Also, tangentially, is Article 16 is saying "Where it is reasonably to be expected that the delay in the arrival at the final destination under the transport contract will be more than 60 minutes the passenger shall immediately have the choice [to] continuation or re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to the final destination at a later date at the passenger’s convenience" ... if I had an advanced ticket for a train which would reasonably be expected to be 60 minutes+ late, I could pick any other time to travel on any future date regardless of day / peak time?

Cheers,

 

[Watershed]

I would naively presume that, given their website advise was "do not travel" there would not be any point in contacting them to ask what they will do specifically for me. Their public advise was "do not travel" which I followed.

And of course that's exactly how they want it to stay! It's disappointing that the legislation does not require train operators to inform passengers of their rights, as EU261 (the equivalent legislation for air travel) does for instance.

Unfortunately, given that they did not promise any compensation etc. for deciding not to travel (just a refund, which you are entitled to anyway), I don't think following their advice benefits you much

I appreciate from the comment above about the PRO, which lead me to the quote "continuation or re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to the final destination at the earliest opportunity" and also, under article 18 " passengers shall also be offered free of charge hotel or other accommodation, and transport between the railway station and place of accommodation, in cases where a stay of one or more nights becomes necessary or an additional stay becomes necessary, where and when physically possible".

So I guess more fool me not having known the specifics of this regulation in advance

Indeed. Awareness of these rights is very limited access the industry and I would emphasise that there are still some elements where it remains unclear or untested how a particular right is to be interpreted or applied.

For instance, it's unclear whether a hotel stay would be "necessary" (and thus reimbursable) in the circumstances of choosing to travel the next day, rather than opting to be re-routed. Of course, if there had been no trains at all from Liverpool, it would have been rather simpler!

That surprises me a little, although in a good way. I've also found the quote "If one leg of your planned return journey is scheduled to be on a strike date, you’re able to take advantage of our ticket flexibility and refund options for both legs. That’s whether your ticket is a Return and either portion is affected, or if you’ve booked two Single tickets to make up a return journey." - not that I would have wanted to cancel the whole trip even had I known this in advance.

I thought as much. But again, it's good to know you have that right.

I'm not entirely sure where that leaves me now; given I followed their published advise rather than explicitly demanded what the legislation appears to offer me. Sorting it out myself has likely been a cheaper option, and I kept these as low as possible, which might carry some weight if this has to go to the Ombudsman.

I think you have a reasonable moral case but the Ombudsman may not see things that way. Although you have explained to us why you ended up travelling from Wakefield rather than Liverpool, I'm not entirely sure this would qualify as re-routing and so even if you had asked Avanti to arrange this, they may have been justified in refusing to do so.

I presume that this would then apply to Avanti (as the train provider of the route on my ticket) rather than LNER who were only the ticket agent? In which case, whilst it might be easier to request a refund via LNER that would make my choice (a) under Article 16 which then might make it harder to get the full amount I'm asking.

The legislation doesn't spell it out - but the fact that it says the refund of the ticket is to be paid "under the conditions by which [the fare] was paid" suggests to me it has to be from the retailer. The legislation also refers to ticket retailers in other places so clearly envisages that not all rights will be against the TOC.

This is all really useful info to know 'for the next time'.

Absolutely. At least this time, even if your complaint gets you nowhere, you will not be massively out of pocket.

Also, tangentially, is Article 16 is saying "Where it is reasonably to be expected that the delay in the arrival at the final destination under the transport contract will be more than 60 minutes the passenger shall immediately have the choice [to] continuation or re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to the final destination at a later date at the passenger’s convenience" ... if I had an advanced ticket for a train which would reasonably be expected to be 60 minutes+ late, I could pick any other time to travel on any future date regardless of day / peak time?

Another unresolved ambiguity in the legislation. But I would have said any future date in reasonable proximity to the originally booked date. A similar issue exists in respect of EU261, with people being refused rebooking for an equivalent date a year later (e.g. next year's summer holidays), due to booking horizons not stretching that far.