Commuting on advance tickets

[eusd]

A question fuelled by the struggle of balancing a full time job in central London mixed with the need to buy a house I just wanted people's thoughts and tips on the viability of commuting on advance tickets entirely.

Especially with the availability of very low advance fares from the Trent Valley, West Mids and into Staffordshire etc, mixed with the low house prices as well.

Just wondered if there are any disadvantages that would make this unviable ? Is it possible that the TOCs could stop offering cheap advance tickets at any time ?

 

[najaB]

Just wondered if there are any disadvantages that would make this unviable ? Is it possible that the TOCs could stop offering cheap advance tickets at any time ?

The main issue is that cheap(er) Advance tickets tend to be on offer outside the peak times. If your job is working 'odd' hours - e.g. nights - then it would work, but not if you're expected to be at work in core hours.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it possible that the TOCs could stop offering cheap advance tickets at any time ?

Definitely is possible, although unlikely to be done across the board on all a particular TOC's routes.

They are completely unregulated though, so don't work out your finances on the assumption that any particular fare will be there for all time.

 

[me123]

I'm also wary that, in many jobs, you can't always guarantee that you'll be finished on time. Remember that your advance ticket entitles you to travel only on one particular train. Perhaps you'll be working in a job where you know you will always be able to get away on the dot, but if not you run the risk of missing your booked train and having to pay for a full single fare anyway in order to go home!

Of course, you can book a ticket on a train that is quite some time after you finish work, in which case you'll often have to potter around London for a while, or if you're like me you'll often be doing voluntary overtime just to fill in the gap until your train leaves. If you're looking at living in the Trent Valley and Staffordshire, that's already a pretty long commute, so adding an hour or so contingency could really impact on your life.

In this respect, walk-up fares and season tickets are much better for the commuter. You have the flexibility that the demands of a full time job will often require.

On the other side of the coin, the tickets are released 12 weeks in advance. If Advances are the best option, then you can go for them. If not (e.g. if the fares go up), you'll know well in advance if you need to consider walk-up fares or season tickets. If demand is up in one particular month and you can't get your usual advance fares, you'll know this 12 weeks in advance and may be able to buy a weekly or even monthly season ticket to compensate. As you can only buy seasons fairly close to the start of their validity, there's no risk or harm in looking for advance fares 12 weeks before you go, assuming that you know for definite when you'll be working.

If you are going to do this, I'd work on the assumption that you'll be paying for a weekly season ticket, and any better fares you get will be a bonus.

 

[Romilly]

Over a 5-year period of doing this on a completely different route, I think that the weekly cost started at around £80, gradually crept down to just under £60, then shot up to almost £120, then collapsed back to just over £60, and ended up at around £90. And that was with buying as early possible, some clever splitting, and trying to minimise the number of late changes to bookings.

 

[westv]

All my tickets for my Monday morning/Friday evening commute are AP. If I was travelling more than 3 days a week (unlikely on my route) I would certainly get an annual season.

 

[eusd]

Hi guys, this would be based on arriving into Euston at around 8:30.

Some good points - have been giving myself some wriggle room in cases of finishing work late.

I had been researching Nuneaton to Euston, using a VT departure at 7:28 and arriving 8:27 for example, and returning on the 18:49 LM service, which often has advance fares of under £5 each way.

 

[Sleeper]

If you are going to do this, I'd work on the assumption that you'll be paying for a weekly season ticket, and any better fares you get will be a bonus.

If you're looking at house-buying you're obviously weighing substantial sums of money, so you ought to be able to include in your calculations budgeting for an Annual Season. I believe they are cheaper (per day) than monthlies or weeklies, and carry additional Gold Card advantages including 1/3rd off travel over quite a wide area of the south-east, which has recently expanded to include some of the areas you are thinking of moving to as shown on the map here:-

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/routemaps/Gold_Card_scheme_area_from_02_Jan_15.pdf

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Seasons are regulated tickets, so are much more likely than Advance tickets to survive relatively unchanged (subj to inflation) over a longish period of time. As Me123 has said above, Advances come on the market 12 weeks in advance of their date. If there were to be a major change of policy to your detriment, that's no sort of notice to be given that your financial plan is no longer viable!

Best of luck. I really sympathise with your problem of being in full time work in London, but unable to afford a home.

 

[LexyBoy]

What sort of prices are you getting? I had a quick look myself and found typical AP fares (week of 16/5) of:
- Out: 0735 Virgin £35 (£55 either side)
- Back: 1849 LM £15 (cheapest until after 8)
Giving £250 for a 5 day week commute. Add to that £24 for 10 x Tube journeys on PAYG, if required. Even with a £5 LM ticket it's £200.

A weekly season ticket is £221.20 Any Permitted or £160 LM Only. A Travelcard including unlimited travel in Zones 1-6 is £233.20 (Any Permitted; the LM one is almost the same). Buying monthly or longer works out cheaper too.

Just wondered if there are any disadvantages that would make this unviable ?

The big disadvantages are the obvious ones:
- You're tied to those trains, so if you finish early you have to kill time and if you finish late you'll have to buy a new (expensive) ticket. No quick pint after work etc...
- If you miss your train for whatever reason you will need a new ticket (exception: Tube/rail delays, but only if a ticket to/from "London U12" etc or Travelcard is held). Particularly relevant if you are not living within walking distance of the station.
- If your booked train is delayed, you will have to wait for it rather than getting the next train (unless staff give you permission to board, which is unlikely unless it's a very major delay).
- The inconvenience of having to book five journeys each week as the Advance tickets become available.
- Inconvenience of making sure you have the correct tickets with you every day, and travel on the right trains (will you remember that you booked the 0720 instead of the 0735 to save £10?).
- None of the perks of a Season ticket - "free" weekend travel to anywhere on your route, Gold Card discounts etc.

Small advantage: not infrequently Advances can be cheaper in First Class, though this is unlikely if you're getting the very cheapest tiers.

Having done a long commute myself, I can say that it is pretty tiring. Making the journey artificially longer by adding "safety time", and/or having the stress of having to make a specific train, is only going to make this worse. For me I wouldn't consider doing this, but YMMV - you can always try it out for a while to see how it works of course.

Is it possible that the TOCs could stop offering cheap advance tickets at any time ?

Yes; these tickets are not regulated so the prices and availability can change week by week. As said above though, you'll know this many weeks in advance so can buy a Season to cover these gaps should they occur. Engineering and route closures can also mean limited or no Advance availability, and different TOCs can release their Advances at different times meaning further complication to booking.

Certainly don't base your financial calculations on their availability - use the (regulated, indeed) Season ticket price and treat anything cheaper it as a saving.

 

[OwlMan]

Hi guys, this would be based on arriving into Euston at around 8:30.

Some good points - have been giving myself some wriggle room in cases of finishing work late.

I had been researching Nuneaton to Euston, using a VT departure at 7:28 and arriving 8:27 for example, and returning on the 18:49 LM service, which often has advance fares of under £5 each way.

Where are yu looking for the fares?. I have never seen a fare less than £50 for the 0728 Nuneaton - London. Even for 10 June (the latest currently availablethe lowest is £59. The lowest possible fare on Virgin is £7.50 & LM £6

 

[eusd]

Where are yu looking for the fares?. I have never seen a fare less than £50 for the 0728 Nuneaton - London. Even for 10 June (the latest currently availablethe lowest is £59. The lowest possible fare on Virgin is £7.50 & LM £6

The example I've checked just now was Mon 2nd May 2016 - one way on the 07:28 VT from Nuneaton to Euston is currently £4.95 with a 16-25 railcard.

 

[OwlMan]

The example I've checked just now was Mon 2nd May 2016 - one way on the 07:28 VT from Nuneaton to Euston is currently £4.95 with a 16-25 railcard.

That's a Bank Holiday! - no cummuter traffic - look on the next day.

 

[greatkingrat]

Mon 2nd May is a bank holiday so that is not a good day to use if you are looking for typical weekday prices.

 

[LexyBoy]

Ah- a Railcard might push things slightly in favour of using Advances, on cost at least.

Pity this wasn't a couple of years ago, when Virgin had the bonkers/eminently sensible (delete as appropriate depending whether you have a Railcard) policy of allowing passengers with Railcard-discounted Off Peak tickets to travel at any time.

 

[eusd]

Oops, not the best example then.

Based on a regular working day then, if I pay 5 times a week a total of £17.80 (£7.90 + £9.90 fare), in theory that would be a substantial saving if against the Nuneaton-Euston season ticket which is £615.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

This is quite normal on TPe routes, but you have to be on the ball with respect to knowing when to book. 12 weeks in advance when the cheapest tickets are released will sell very quickly. And you need to know in advance when you need to be in and when to book your return home. And as mentioned earlier, miss your booked train or catch an early one, tough. New ticket!

 

[LexyBoy]

Based on a regular working day then, if I pay 5 times a week a total of £17.80 (£7.90 + £9.90 fare), in theory that would be a substantial saving if against the Nuneaton-Euston season ticket which is £615.

With those fares, it's about £400 a month, so saving around £200. (That season is LM Only BTW, the Any Permitted is £849.50).

As OwlMan says, the VT service (0735 rather than 0728 according to NRE?) is unlikely to have very cheap tickets and is consistently £23.10 for dates that have Advance tickets available in May. The £7.90 fare you quote is available on the 0630 and 0819 LM services - hardly ideal if you start work at 9.

If you're serious about this, I would conduct a paper exercise of noting down the prices of the Advance tickets you would buy as they are released each week (be realistic about how much time you're willing to spend twiddling your thumbs at the station), and see how much it comes to. Consider how many times you might have to buy another ticket, e.g. if seeing friends after work, missing trains, or weekend travel.

 

[eusd]

With those fares, it's about £400 a month, so saving around £200. (That season is LM Only BTW, the Any Permitted is £849.50).

As OwlMan says, the VT service (0735 rather than 0728 according to NRE?) is unlikely to have very cheap tickets and is consistently £23.10 for dates that have Advance tickets available in May. The £7.90 fare you quote is available on the 0630 and 0819 LM services - hardly ideal if you start work at 9.

If you're serious about this, I would conduct a paper exercise of noting down the prices of the Advance tickets you would buy as they are released each week (be realistic about how much time you're willing to spend twiddling your thumbs at the station), and see how much it comes to. Consider how many times you might have to buy another ticket, e.g. if seeing friends after work, missing trains, or weekend travel.

On a personal level though, I don't use the underground or buses regularly as I get off at Euston and walk the 15-20 mins to my office, which makes the 8:05 arrival quite good for a 9am start (personally as I prefer not to rock up at 9 on the dot.) and the 18:49 gives enough time if I may happen to have to stay an extra half an hour.

I guess it's down to individual preference though. But we can agree it's doable?

 

[Bishopstone]

Don't forget to factor-in the despair of turning up at Euston, having already travelled/worked for 12 hours, to find the WCML in a lesser or greater degree of disruption.

There will be evenings when the journey takes two or three times longer than is timetabled, and evenings when you have to stand all the way because reservations have not been applied.

There will be mornings when you have to pass the boss sheepish, at 10.00, and apologise for missing the 09.30 meeting because the trains have let you down (again).

A commute of this length/vulnerability is not really practical if people are relying upon you to (for example) open a shop or showroom as a key holder; perform some 'start of business' IT function or attend critical meetings before 10.00, regularly.

What happens when you arrive at 10.00 one morning due to disruption, and you're booked on the 18.15 return train? You 'owe' the company time and you haven't finished your planned work for the day. Do you have a sympathetic boss, and can you do some work on the train or from home, when you eventually get back?

Can you work a day or two a week from home, to ease the fatigue which you will inevitably start to feel if you commute 5 days per week?

Could you live close to the station at the country end, or would you be reliant upon buses (God forbid!) or use of a car to the station? If you need to use the car and it's not garaged, don't forget to allow an extra ten minutes for ice scraping on frosty mornings: although we've had few of those, this winter.

I had a (theoretical) 110 minute rail commute, door to door. It was gruelling and frequently dispiriting: and that was First Class, unrestricted by reasonable route or time of train. I'm sorry to say, but I think you would soon find your plan of using Advances to be incompatible with work expectations and family life.

Look at the cost of an annual season, add a premium of (say) £20,000 pa to justify the stress and fatigue of long distance commuting, then see whether the London job still leaves you better off than something in Coventry/Leicester/Birmingham.

 

[LexyBoy]

I guess it's down to individual preference though. But we can agree it's doable?

Doable on a ticketing level certainly, although the savings for me would come nowhere close to making up for the added hassle and loss of flexibility. And certainly don't base your financial calculations on using Advance tickets - for that matter, I don't think the LM Only season is regulated either, although this is much less likely to fluctuate hugely.

As a commute, it depends. If you can live a short walk from the station at Nuneaton, then it's not so bad - just over an hour on the train isn't much more than many commuters from London suburbia have, and avoiding the Tube is a major bonus.

On the other hand, you'll be leaving the house at around 6 am and getting home after 8 pm. That doesn't leave much time for the rest of your life, and it does get tiring.

I did a ~2 h commute for around 9 months and got fed up with it pretty quickly - although mine was worse in that it was more "bitty" - 20 min walk, 15 min train, 20 min bus, 50 min train, 15 min bus. Some of my colleagues had similar commutes and seemed happy for years though.

 

[cgcenet]

I guess it's down to individual preference though. But we can agree it's doable?

Only if you know EXACTLY when you are going to travel in and out of London every single day. Change of plan == New Ticket (probably full price).

It would work for a weekly commute, but the idea of using Advance tickets for a daily commute is, frankly, bonkers.

 

[broadgage]

Also consider, how secure is your employment ?

Advance tickets purchased months in advance would represent a considerable loss in case of redundancy or relocation. Unused portions of season tickets are refundable subject to a modest charge.

 

[CheesyChips]

A number of years ago I took on a client in Battersea and had to travel from just outside Bham once or twice a week. I must admit that the most irritating parts of the journey were getting from my home to Snow Hill and then from Marylebone to Clapham Junction + a short bus ride.

The fact that you can walk to your office from Euston is very lucky.

The Chiltern Snow Hill to London journey was quite enjoyable at just under 2 hours.

 

[amateur]

I did a ~2 h commute for around 9 months and got fed up with it pretty quickly - although mine was worse in that it was more "bitty" - 20 min walk, 15 min train, 20 min bus, 50 min train, 15 min bus. Some of my colleagues had similar commutes and seemed happy for years though.

does the "bitty" annoy you? Missed connections are annoying I would imagine?

 

[eusd]

It's not something I'm looking to commit to for the rest of my working life, just looking at the feasibility of it short term.

Based on living walking distance from the start point, to a London terminus which is also within walking distance of my place of work. I'm aware of how painful commuting can be, and of the issues I may occasionally be presented with.. but then I know that I could encounter the equal, or arguably much worse problems trying to get from say, Greenwich to Holborn.

 

[westv]

I have a spreadsheet to enable me to keep track of my weekly AP tickets. Doing it for 5 days a week just sounds a logistical nightmare to me.

 

[Deerfold]

I spent 3 years commuting between Steeton and Silsden and Kins Cross on Advance tickets (to London Mondays, returning Thursdays). Initially it was very cheap, but the lower quotas were removed on my favourite trains, quadrupling my price down and pushing me onto later trains coming back up, even buying on the day tickets were released. I spent a lot of Thursday evenings killing time and getting home around midnight and was travelling some Sundays. Fortunately an alternative ticket became available then as I'd really had enough.

 

[All Line Rover]

Pity this wasn't a couple of years ago, when Virgin had the bonkers/eminently sensible (delete as appropriate depending whether you have a Railcard) policy of allowing passengers with Railcard-discounted Off Peak tickets to travel at any time.

For daily commuters from Nuneaton to London, that easement didn't offer much of a saving over the 'Any Permitted' season ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not something I'm looking to commit to for the rest of my working life, just looking at the feasibility of it short term.

When the London Midland franchise expires in 2017/18, those cheap Advance fares could disappear. It wouldn't surprise me. The £614.40/month 'London Midland Only' season ticket is also unregulated, and it wouldn't surprise me if this disappeared either. The only regulated fare is the £849.50/month 'Any Permitted' season ticket (£8848/year). At roughly £34 return each day (on the basis of 250 working days over the year), I believe this represents good value for a daily commute of almost 200 miles. Furthermore, commuting from Nuneaton to Euston on Virgin Trains for a job in the Euston area is not, in my opinion, unpleasant or excessively lengthy. But you need to base your calculations on the basis of paying £8848/year, as not only is there a high likelihood that the Advance fares you quote will be unavailable within two or three years, but I can guarantee that you will quickly get exhausted of being tied to specific trains and, even worse, specific London Midland trains (where seat reservations are unavailable, where standing room only is the norm leaving Euston in the evening and often Nuneaton in the morning, and where during commuting hours journey times are still significantly longer than Virgin Trains services).

Another point worth bearing in mind is that the WCML timetable will be recast in 2017/18. Although one hopes that this will result in service improvements at stations such as Nuneaton, one must bear in mind the fact that HS2 is waiting in the wings and the lengthy redevelopment of Euston station will result in fewer paths available to and from the station.

 

[LexyBoy]

^ what he said. Also, I don't know how long you'd be eligible for your Railcard for, but once that's gone the savings over a season ticket will be wiped out.

By all means try it, but be prepared to give in and pay a bit more for quicker journeys on nicer trains without having to hang around Euston before you can get home after a long day.

Assuming you're settled in the area, I'd take a good look at jobs you could potentially get in the West Midlands / Leicester areas, and compare their salaries to your London job less £9k for travel, and their working hours to those of your London job plus 3-4 hours a day travelling time.

does the "bitty" annoy you? Missed connections are annoying I would imagine?

2 hours sat on a train allows you to snooze/read/doodle etc, whereas having lots of short trips means you're constantly interrupted. Dashing to make connexions, or alter your route if there's problems, doesn't help either.

 

[Camden]

As someone who has done plenty of long distance commuting, I say it's certainly worth a try for the savings on offer if these are important to you.

The key thing will be mentality. Also, know exactly how long it takes you to realistically walk between Euston and work to allow time for getting on/off the train. On a normal day you can stay at your office for longer and do something productive with that time. For the train journey, likewise, find something useful to do and the journey will go much faster. If this is something you'd normally have to make time for then you'll lose less time than you think.

On one busy route I often take slower trains because it allows me more time to get things done that are often tricky to get done in the office! Typically, this then has a knock on of meaning I can finish work earlier or start later. Depending on your work, perhaps your work is amenable to you working on the go? If so, you might be able to get an earlier (and potentially even cheaper) train home, or a later one in.