commuters whinge, where does all that money go?

[mailman]

So in the last four years my season ticket has gone up by over £1000, so does anyone know where all that extra money is going in improvements to my line?

To be fair, Network Rail has started extended all the platforms between Peterborough and London so 12 carriage trains can stop everywhere...but that work has only just started AND is it worth an extra grand on top of the old season ticket price!

Mailman

 

[YorkshireBear]

So in the last four years my season ticket has gone up by over £1000, so does anyone know where all that extra money is going in improvements to my line?

To be fair, Network Rail has started extended all the platforms between Peterborough and London so 12 carriage trains can stop everywhere...but that work has only just started AND is it worth an extra grand on top of the old season ticket price!

Mailman

£1000 in 4 years?? is that well above inflation +1% ?? Seems excessive.

 

[John55]

So in the last four years my season ticket has gone up by over £1000, so does anyone know where all that extra money is going in improvements to my line?

To be fair, Network Rail has started extended all the platforms between Peterborough and London so 12 carriage trains can stop everywhere...but that work has only just started AND is it worth an extra grand on top of the old season ticket price!

Mailman

If you are expecting an answer it might be helpful to say what your journey is and the detail of the price change otherwise no one can have a clue what you are talking about.

 

[tsr]

Just as you have been hit by price rises, so has the railway.

Imagine the cost of the energy/fuel bills. Think of the need to provide staff with a competitive or at least sufficient wage where possible. Think of parts and materials costs. It all adds up.

By all means get compensation where poor service occurs, but don't complain when (and - depending on your TOC and local NR support - if ), in this economically tough day and age, you are offered a punctual service with facilities in line with what you have knowingly paid for, unless you can find a foolproof way to reduce costs.

There will be wastefulness within the railway, and rising ticket prices that may cover these are no excuse for this. However, as I say, costs will rise anyway.

Obviously, I appreciate that it may seem tough to swallow price increases. For emphasis, I repeat what I have just said - if you have a good suggestion to reduce these, please make it!

 

[jopsuk]

£1000 in 4 years?? is that well above inflation +1% ?? Seems excessive.

A Peterborough-Kings Cross Standard Class FCC only with no undergound add on is currently £5,600
Same route, any operator (ie can be used on East Coast) First Class with underground is £12,184

His season ticket could be any one of the intermediate combinations.

 

[barrykas]

Even without knowing the exact journey, we can have a look for likely candidates:

• Peterborough - London Terminals rte Any Permitted:
  • NFM01 (Sep 2008) : £5560
  • NFM02 (Jan 2009) : £5892
  • NFM05 (Jan 2010) : £5892
  • NFM08 (Jan 2011) : £6232
  • NFM11 (Jan 2012) : £6608
• Huntingdon - London Terminals:
  • NFM01 (Sep 2008) : £3920
  • NFM02 (Jan 2009) : £4020
  • NFM05 (Jan 2010) : £4020
  • NFM08 (Jan 2011) : £4260
  • NFM11 (Jan 2012) : £4512

Peterborough is priced by East Coast, Huntingdon by FCC.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[mailman]

On average my season ticket ha gone up between £250 and £300 a year and Im sure that pretty much everyone else who commutes will also have seen massive price increases over the same period of time.

Now the thing is every year FCC tells us every December/January that the money is going to be invested in to upgrading the rail infrastructure...of course the only problem is that over this period of time the only improvements Ive seen have been the extension of the platforms between Peterborough and London, which only started this year.

Is there an option that wont involve pain for everyone? Well given fares are out of control why not just get the Government to take everything over?

Secondly, another part of the problem is that there is no competition. Why would FCC reduce prices when they have no reason to reduce prices?

Thirdly, I guess there is the old car isnt there...that is until you start paying taxes based on miles travelled and, again, lets be honest here...anyone thinking the Government will make it cheaper to drive lives in laalaa land!

Maybe the only real answer is full Government take over?

Mailman

 

[jopsuk]

Barry- don't forget there's PBO FCC-only tickets, all can have Z1-6 add ons and all can have First Class versions

 

[wintonian]

Part of the extra cost is going towards paying for an increased share of the day to day costs of the railway, being that it government policy to decrease the amount of public subsidy, which is to be made up from an increase in fares.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Thameslink is related to that line. And also hithcin flyover.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Plus Alexandra Palace capacity increases , Cambridge new platforms of 12 car length - 321 stock drafted into FCC and so. Thameslink Programme. KX rebuild concourse and Platform 0

Much is not visible to the average commuter.

Rising staff and EC4T / diesel costs have to be factored in also - some research will show

 

[HH]

Q: Where does the money go? A: To the Government (mostly).

Q: Why do those greedy TOCS put up the Fares so much? A: Because the Government tells them to.

So absolutely no use in the Government taking over. Have you seen East Coast prices come down since they took that over?

 

[CNash]

Part of the extra cost is going towards paying for an increased share of the day to day costs of the railway, being that it government policy to decrease the amount of public subsidy, which is to be made up from an increase in fares.

But surely, eventually this plan will hit breaking point? They can't increase fares so much that people are put off from travelling by rail altogether, that would be self-defeating.

 

[Oswyntail]

Perhaps there is a move away from subsidising season tickets

 

[HH]

Perhaps there is a move away from subsidising season tickets

Season Tickets are not all subsidised*. And arguably where they are, it's more that the standard return fare is a rip off.

* A standard Annual Season on most Commuter TOCs is the same as 40 Weekly Seasons. On average even a dedicated commuter rarely goes to work for more than 44 weeks a year (5 weeks holiday, 2 weeks BHs, 1 week other). And for the discount of 10% the TOC gets all the money up front, having use of the cash and having certainty on it's revenue base.

 

[tbtc]

So in the last four years my season ticket has gone up by over £1000, so does anyone know where all that extra money is going in improvements to my line?

What would RPI have increased it to over that time?

It's meaningless to say "over a thousand pounds" without any qualifying information.

Staff wages have gone up by more than inflation over those four years
Fuel costs have gone up by more than inflation over those four years
I'd guess that Network Rail's costs have gone up by more than inflation over those four years?

Whilst most tickets go up broadly in line with inflation each year regardless of actual improvements, but the southern part of the ECML is seeing more than its fair share - esp with the Thameslink work going on

 

[wintonian]

But surely, eventually this plan will hit breaking point? They can't increase fares so much that people are put off from travelling by rail altogether, that would be self-defeating.

The potential for the railway to become a "rich mans toy" and "a middle class play thing" has already been spouted.

There is also supply and demand, in that if usage keeps increasing then it is a sound business decision to keep increasing fares. Unfortunately the economic laws of supply and demand and their relationship to profit margins seems to take precedence over good business ethics these days.

 

[Flamingo]

What has the equivalent in Bus/coach fares increased by in the same period I wonder? Petrol has certainly increased by more than RPI.

 

[HH]

I'd guess that Network Rail's costs have gone up by more than inflation over those four years?

Network Rail charges go up exactly by inflation (November RPI).

 

[jopsuk]

What has the equivalent in Bus/coach fares increased by in the same period I wonder? Petrol has certainly increased by more than RPI.

On this route, there's no competition from coaches (I'm still assuming mailman is commuting from Peterborough)- there are five NX services per day, the first of which hits central London after 1000, and nothing else.

(If it is Huntingdon, there's a single coach each day, via Cambridge)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So, from Peterborough, you've huge demand, with limited competition (cheaper and slower FCC versus faster and more expensive EC). From Huntingdon you've got no competition, and huge demand. Why wouldn't the TOCs, who are charged with making a profit (EC just the same as FCC) put their fares up at the maximum rate the government allows?

 

[Flamingo]

What's the general increase across the UK for coaches / buses, I wonder? Have National Express increased their fares? I know my local bus has gone up by at least 25% over the same period.

 

[HH]

If it were still with BR the figure would be higher still - BR had a policy (obviously not communicated to the public) of pricing to the market and their available capacity.

Not that anyone will want to hear that and spoil their ingrained prejudices.

 

[Bald Rick]

But surely, eventually this plan will hit breaking point? They can't increase fares so much that people are put off from travelling by rail altogether, that would be self-defeating.

Eventually, yes. Now? no. Hence why the trains are generally full despite the increases.

Meanwhile in other news petrol prices are up ....

 

[barrykas]

And for the discount of 10% the TOC gets all the money up front, having use of the cash and having certainty on it's revenue base.

Au contraire. The revenue (after commission of 2% where applicable) goes into a suspense account and is "drip fed" to the relevant TOC(s) over the life of the ticket, with the amount depending on the duration of the ticket.

For tickets lasting six months or less, it's assumed you'll make 45 journeys (22.5 days) in any given four week railway period. For those with a validity over six months, the number of assumed journeys ranges from 26 (13 days) to 42 (21 days) depending on which of the four week periods applies, with the figures being listed in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement.

The credit in a given period is calculated by multiplying the value of the ticket (after commission, at 2%, where applicable) by the ratio of the number of journeys in that period to the total validity.

For example, an Annual ticket bought on 1st April (i.e. the start of the railway financial year) is assumed to be valid for 480 journeys (240 days), of which 34 (17 days) fall in Period 1. A hypothetical ticket worth £4800 after commission, and only valid on one TOC to make the sums easier, would therefore earn the TOC £340 in Period 1.

 

[John55]

Au contraire. The revenue (after commission of 2% where applicable) goes into a suspense account and is "drip fed" to the relevant TOC(s) over the life of the ticket, with the amount depending on the duration of the ticket.

Out of curiosity who administers the "suspense account" and has the benefit of the cash in the meantime?

 

[wintonian]

Out of curiosity who administers the "suspense account" and has the benefit of the cash in the meantime?

and how far does the interest on season ticket purchases go to make up for the discount offered?

 

[HH]

For tickets lasting six months or less, it's assumed you'll make 45 journeys (22.5 days) in any given four week railway period. etc

Assumed. This assumption has not changed in how many years?

 

[mailman]

So what is Europe doing right that keeps their rail fares significantly cheaper than ours...or is the UK rail commuter subsidising European rail commuters?!?!

If the Government is already paying out billions of pounds in subsidies to TOC's why not just go the whole hog and take everything over?

Mailman

 

[HH]

If the Government is already paying out billions of pounds in subsidies to TOC's why not just go the whole hog and take everything over?

If. It isn't.

 

[Flamingo]

So what is Europe doing right that keeps their rail fares significantly cheaper

Giving a larger tax subsidy, I would guess...