Commuters to launch bid to take over Southeastern franchise

[Starmill]

This was reported in August Railnews, if that adds any creedendnce to the story in anyone's mind.

 

[Bertie the bus]

That website is laughable. I'm especially impressed by their requests for volunteer negotiations’ specialists, regulatory expert, safety & standards specialists – from any safety regulated industry and engineering specialists.

So it's basically a couple of people who have no knowledge of anything rail related who think they can run a franchise.

 

[route:oxford]

An admirable effort, but IIRC bidders have to demonstrate a certain amount of capital to be eligible to bid. I think that is separate to the bidding fee as well.

We're not talking a group of pensioners who club together to run a church minibus.

The passenger cohort are people who are accustomed to paying around £5,000 a year for a season ticket, and probably work with *really* big money day-in day-out.

Let's play with some numbers:-

London Bridge has in the region of 50,000,000 users a year.

Divided down, that's in the region of 100,000 unique users per working day. Not everyone will be in the station using a Southern Service, but I haven't counted Victoria and non-London users. So let's take 100,000 willing participants.

Undertake a nil coupon £5000 debenture issue which offers a 5% reduction in season ticket in lieu of coupon.

Suddenly you've got a half £Bn pot to play with. That would probably be enough to catch the rail minister's eye.

After that it's just a matter of subcontracting...

Wouldn't it be fun if the rail unions jointly created a Newco to bid for the contract?

Or just recruit the guys who ran DOR.

 

[nottinghamcity]

Aww bless... they really think they're onto something, don't they? It's quite a *professional looking website*, but it's clear that they have absolutely no clue.

It is in fact an accolade for WordPress that an average Joe can producea WP based site which looks pretty good.

 

[najaB]

Let's play with some numbers...

Here's a number to play with - 14 pledge supporters on the website. That's a heck of a way from 100,000.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is just a vehicle for a television show. Nothing to see here.

 

[jon0844]

It is in fact an accolade for WordPress that an average Joe can producea WP based site which looks pretty good.

All it takes is a theme.

http://themegrill.com/themes/spacious/

And, to be honest, once you realise that bit (I run my own site on WP) then the site is nothing special at all.

Even the free TwentySixteen theme with WordPress looks pretty good.

Oh, and the news page gives an error (as in there's no news). Surely they could have created one single story to announce the launch and some other info?

 

[theageofthetra]

I must admit I wasn't aware websites were so easy- in that case they are complete wibblers and this does just look like another bit of awful reality tv in the making.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, if we're generally interested in in innovation, perhaps we ought to give this type of management model a try. And for those who say they have no experience of running a railway, the same could be said of the original private sector franchises twenty years ago.

 

[Domh245]

And for those who say they have no experience of running a railway, the same could be said of the original private sector franchises twenty years ago.

There was a fair few franchises which were bid on (in part) by ex-BR management alongside groups that provided the necessary finance. Chiltern, North Western, and Great Western all spring to mind

 

[racyrich]

Out of interest . . .

When a franchise changes hands, presumably all the operating staff are TUPEd over. Up to what level of management is also transferred? I'd have thought quite high up, as they still have essential knowledge. In fact, what exactly does change?

 

[swt_passenger]

Out of interest . . .

When a franchise changes hands, presumably all the operating staff are TUPEd over. Up to what level of management is also transferred? I'd have thought quite high up, as they still have essential knowledge. In fact, what exactly does change?

Everyone who is a normal salaried employee is part of TUPE. Those who aren't are very few.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I must admit I wasn't aware websites were so easy- in that case they are complete wibblers and this does just look like another bit of awful reality tv in the making.

Websites are easy as you say, and they can go on for ever, even when the project has long been considered dead and buried, e.g.: http://www.renaissancetrains.com/glasgow-trains.html

 

[transmanche]

There was a fair few franchises which were bid on (in part) by ex-BR management alongside groups that provided the necessary finance. Chiltern, North Western, and Great Western all spring to mind

The Railways Act 1993 gave OPRAF a duty of "promoting the award of franchise agreements to companies in which qualifying railway employees have a substantial interest" and "of encouraging new entry to the passenger railway industry". That duty was repealed by the Transport Act 2000.

 

[MotCO]

I've seen the documentary - it's called The Titfield Thunderbolt !!

 

[yorksrob]

There was a fair few franchises which were bid on (in part) by ex-BR management alongside groups that provided the necessary finance. Chiltern, North Western, and Great Western all spring to mind

Well indeed, but not all. And those not guided by BR expertise soon had to discover some. If management buy outs are encouraged by the process, why not passenger buy outs ?

 

[fgwrich]

One of the photos they illustrate is not a South Eastern Stations..!!!
It is easy to spot..! A clue is that all South Eastern passenger services are
operated by EMUs over electrified lines..!

Let me rephrase that for you - One of those photos is a South Eastern station. The rest - Flint, North Wales Coast / ATW, Southern 313 interior and Kings Cross!

 

[Domh245]

Well indeed, but not all. And those not guided by BR expertise soon had to discover some. If management buy outs are encouraged by the process, why not passenger buy outs ?

Those not guided by ex BR managers had experience in other industries. Of the original franchises, there was National Express, Prism Rail, Stagecoach, First, Govia/Go-Ahead, who all have plenty of experience from busses, Virgin with airline experience, Connex & MTR with rail experience, Sea containers with shipping experience, and then the management groups of Great Western Holdings, Chiltern Management Group, and GB Railways. All of the original franchisees had experience then in running large transport operations, something that still holds today, and something that this group don't have.

 

[racyrich]

Those not guided by ex BR managers had experience in other industries. Of the original franchises, there was National Express, Prism Rail, Stagecoach, First, Govia/Go-Ahead, who all have plenty of experience from busses, Virgin with airline experience, Connex & MTR with rail experience, Sea containers with shipping experience, and then the management groups of Great Western Holdings, Chiltern Management Group, and GB Railways. All of the original franchisees had experience then in running large transport operations, something that still holds today, and something that this group don't have.

That's why I asked about who was TUPEd over. If all the management are transferred then you retain the knowledge and experience. If a group of passengers or whoever managed to raise the money to fund and win a bid, the only difference would presumably be their slightly different view of business priorities.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Anyone with a contract with the outgoing franchise will be TUPE'd so that normally includes the directors. However, directors and senior staff may be offered other posts within the outgoing franchise's owning group if they want to retain them; if they don't, it is down to individual negotiation whether the directors are retained or paid off.

 

[Domh245]

That's why I asked about who was TUPEd over. If all the management are transferred then you retain the knowledge and experience. If a group of passengers or whoever managed to raise the money to fund and win a bid, the only difference would presumably be their slightly different view of business priorities.

As a rule of thumb, if their job title involves the word "Chief" or they have experience within the parent company outside of that franchise, then they probably won't TUPE over.

 

[jon0844]

Let me rephrase that for you - One of those photos is a South Eastern station. The rest - Flint, North Wales Coast / ATW, Southern 313 interior and Kings Cross! [emoji38]

I wonder if they took the photos themselves, or pulled them off the net. If the latter, I trust they got permission!

 

[yorksrob]

Those not guided by ex BR managers had experience in other industries. Of the original franchises, there was National Express, Prism Rail, Stagecoach, First, Govia/Go-Ahead, who all have plenty of experience from busses, Virgin with airline experience, Connex & MTR with rail experience, Sea containers with shipping experience, and then the management groups of Great Western Holdings, Chiltern Management Group, and GB Railways. All of the original franchisees had experience then in running large transport operations, something that still holds today, and something that this group don't have.

Oh yes, like Stagecoach, who had minimal experience of running train services and sacked too many drivers before having to take them back on again.

This isn't a comment on them, except to say that they didn't have the experience of running UK train services and had to learn quickly, as a not for profit organisation would.

Most of these industries bore little resemblance to the railway anyway. Virgin and their airlines and cola ? They've done pretty well since, but were quite green at the time. Connex, whatever their experience, it didn't prove adequate.

The UK railway scene was a learning curve for all of them and there's no reason why a not for profit wouldn't learn as well.

 

[najaB]

The UK railway scene was a learning curve for all of them and there's no reason why a not for profit wouldn't learn as well.

True that it was a learning curve at privatisation, but it was a learning curve for everybody. Today there are a lot of people with twenty-plus years experience, and unless this group can poach them from elsewhere they will have none while their competitors in the franchise competition will have proven track records.

 

[yorksrob]

True that it was a learning curve at privatisation, but it was a learning curve for everybody. Today there are a lot of people with twenty-plus years experience, and unless this group can poach them from elsewhere they will have none while their competitors in the franchise competition will have proven track records.

Perhaps they will poach expertise. Perhaps they won't. I don't think we should necessarily dismiss a different management model out of hand.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

True that it was a learning curve at privatisation, but it was a learning curve for everybody. Today there are a lot of people with twenty-plus years experience, and unless this group can poach them from elsewhere they will have none while their competitors in the franchise competition will have proven track records.

Not just that, but in the period when franchises were handed over from the shadow franchises under British Rail to the franchisees themselves, a lot of operators went in heavy handed, assumed there was simply too many staff, working conditions were out dated etc, they made sweeping changes and got so much wrong. The example about SWT and drivers is a case in point.

Today, anybody taking over a franchise from one of the industry concerns like Stagecoach or GoVia will know costs are down to the bone, staffing is as low as possible, productivity can't be pushed much higher without issues and there's all the reliability and PPM figures to hit or die trying.

 

[najaB]

Perhaps they will poach expertise. Perhaps they won't. I don't think we should necessarily dismiss a different management model out of hand.

I'm not dismissing the model - I think that it has a lot of merit. I'm not as confident about this particular bid being successful though.

 

[306024]

I wonder who is going to 'volunteer' to write their safety case.

 

[HH]

Let me rephrase that for you - One of those photos is a South Eastern station. The rest - Flint, North Wales Coast / ATW, Southern 313 interior and Kings Cross!

Looks more like a London Midland Station to me. Maybe it's a spoof.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wonder who is going to 'volunteer' to write their safety case.

I was going to volunteer - for £1000/day.

 

[bb21]

I was going to volunteer - for £1000/day.

Bargain!!

Have a whole year, that's only £360k right?

What is £360k when you have sufficient funds to make a bid for a franchise?

I don't think this one is entirely impossible, but I will believe it when their bid is lodged.