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Commuters baffled as Southeastern train is diverted through train wash

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deltic1989

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They have journalists??? I thought it was chimpanzees sat at typewriters.

Yes but if you sat 100 chimps at 100 typewriters for 100 years they would write the entire works of shakespere ( I might have misquoted that a little im prepared to be corrected). On the score of the gent that failed to understand that the driver didnt know the route. I came across a similar fellow a few months back, who was frustrated because he had a meeting to get to (time is money was quoted a few times), now im no expert in train driving, i only really know what ive picked up in train simulator, which whilst its as colse as ill ever get, is like playing Grand Theft Auto to pass yourdriving test. Whilst playing i've learned a little about having to know where all the signals are and stopping distences for stations etc, and I tried to convey to this fellow that he wasnt on a bus that can stop in a few yards, far from it, so simply following the rails dosent really work. I hope the guy left with a better understanding but you never know i could have just been one othe "crazies" that strike up conversations with random strangers :p
 
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NSEFAN

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I think the quote refers to an infinite number of chimps in an infinite amount of time to write the works of Shakespeare! If we're bashing the Metro, then perhaps 7 chimps, 10 minutes will suffice? :p

It is the reality that a lot of 'normals' have no idea how the trains actually work. I would, however, have thought regular commuters would take a bit more interest! If anything, understanding the system might help them get around quicker when delays like this do occur.
 

kbd

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Agreed. Things go wrong with anything and everything, thats this universe. Things break. For some reason the railway is inexplicably expected to be immune.

You make a point, but it's not enough to just throw your hands in the air and say "sh*t happens" because if we all took that attitude we would have no objective way of assessing whether a service was adequate or not.

Let me tell you my story, it has some similarities.

I work in an investment bank supporting the infrastructure of trading systems. Yes things go wrong, but do you suppose that when a trader cannot trade his way out of a bad position, or when payments to counterparties cannot be made, everyone just throws their hands in the air and says "that's life".

No we do not operate like that - because we are professionals.

Every outage that occurs is supported by root cause analysis. We put in a huge amount of effort into proactive maintenance to avoid problems before they occur. The bank pays upfront to secure the best staff with the best technical knowledge and the best attitude and professionalism to ensure that outages are kept to a minumum.


I suspect much of this is true on the railways. There are many engineering components which can go wrong, and I'm sure (or at least I hope) that there are proactive procedures in place to avoid failures.
I would also guess that when problems occur - they are investigated to avoid repeat incidents.

However, how do we actually judge this ? They say "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". Many passengers would be suspicious of whether ToC and NR are leading organisations with leading people. Do other european countries with rail systems of similar complexity and volume suffer the same kind of dreadful statistics as our railway suffers ?

So with respect to the poster - I think passengers know things will go wrong and things break, but passengers are not stupid, and many of them will work in professions where they have to solve problems and fix broken things. They will undoubtedly think to themselves "In my job if things broke this much I would get the sack - so what kind of ship are ToC and NR operating" ?

That kind of attitude may be fair or it may not, but it is understandable.
 

jon0844

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I think the quote refers to an infinite number of chimps in an infinite amount of time to write the works of Shakespeare! If we're bashing the Metro, then perhaps 7 chimps, 10 minutes will suffice? :p

For online stuff, you can just employ the one chimp to churn out anything and then hire someone good at SEO!

Metro has today done a big 'in focus' feature looking at the plans by DB to run trains to London, and even a story about the fuss with France and safety concerns. I am not sure how new any of it is, as I read it briefly and thought it was more a report on the fuss last year. It reads as if DB won't be allowed to run trains through, and Eurostar can't run the new trains they've ordered either.

To be fair though, they've written a story elsewhere that I happen to know is 100% true. I suppose there's a first time for everything!
 

Greenback

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For online stuff, you can just employ the one chimp to churn out anything and then hire someone good at SEO!

Metro has today done a big 'in focus' feature looking at the plans by DB to run trains to London, and even a story about the fuss with France and safety concerns. I am not sure how new any of it is, as I read it briefly and thought it was more a report on the fuss last year. It reads as if DB won't be allowed to run trains through, and Eurostar can't run the new trains they've ordered either.

To be fair though, they've written a story elsewhere that I happen to know is 100% true. I suppose there's a first time for everything!

I read the feature too, and it seemed a bit old and inaccurate. I got the impression when skimming through it that it was all about Eurotunnel trying to get more trains through their tunnel!
 

Mojo

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I don't read the Metro because I'm fed up with getting ink on my hands and having to be careful not to touch anything and then having to scrub my hands clean when I get to work.

My journey's so short anyway I prefer just standing or sitting.

I do pick up the Evening Standard though and typically get to about page 5 by the time I'm at my local stop! I do read it over dinner and breakfast though.
 

Flamingo

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You make a point, but it's not enough to just throw your hands in the air and say "sh*t happens" because if we all took that attitude we would have no objective way of assessing whether a service was adequate or not.

Let me tell you my story, it has some similarities.

I work in an investment bank supporting the infrastructure of trading systems. Yes things go wrong, but do you suppose that when a trader cannot trade his way out of a bad position, or when payments to counterparties cannot be made, everyone just throws their hands in the air and says "that's life".

No we do not operate like that - because we are professionals.

Every outage that occurs is supported by root cause analysis. We put in a huge amount of effort into proactive maintenance to avoid problems before they occur. The bank pays upfront to secure the best staff with the best technical knowledge and the best attitude and professionalism to ensure that outages are kept to a minumum.


I suspect much of this is true on the railways. There are many engineering components which can go wrong, and I'm sure (or at least I hope) that there are proactive procedures in place to avoid failures.
I would also guess that when problems occur - they are investigated to avoid repeat incidents.

However, how do we actually judge this ? They say "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". Many passengers would be suspicious of whether ToC and NR are leading organisations with leading people. Do other european countries with rail systems of similar complexity and volume suffer the same kind of dreadful statistics as our railway suffers ?

So with respect to the poster - I think passengers know things will go wrong and things break, but passengers are not stupid, and many of them will work in professions where they have to solve problems and fix broken things. They will undoubtedly think to themselves "In my job if things broke this much I would get the sack - so what kind of ship are ToC and NR operating" ?

That kind of attitude may be fair or it may not, but it is understandable.

Well, first off, given the current global financial crisis, I'm not sure that banking is in the position to teach anybody else about risk analysis (or much else). I'm sure your comments about hiring the most expensive staff is true. However, calling them the best? - as you say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

In this case, diverting the train was a solution to the problem.

Do you want to quote a few of those "dreadful statistics"? And compare them to the statistics for the Banking sector.

My TOC runs a variety of commuter and intercity services across a very large geographic area, with differing requirements from passengers on the same trains. Regarding punctuality, we are at the mercy of the weather, vandalism, cable theft, and the vagaries of Network Rail, as well as things going wrong and breaking - don't forget, a large proportion of the trains are over 30 years old.

However, despite this, we managed in the last 12 months:
High Speed: Punctuality 88.8% Reliability 99.3%
London - Thames Valley: Punctuality 88.8% Reliability 99.4%
Bristol Suburban: Punctuality 90.5% Reliability 99.3%
Devon: Punctuality 95.0% Reliability 99.5%
Plymouth & Cornwall: Punctuality 96.7% Reliability 98.9%
South Wales - South Coast: Punctuality 91.6% Reliability 99.4%

Try to achieve similar in the banking sector, with 30 year-old computers and an equivalent level of disruption from external sources, and then come back and tell us how to do our job.
 

tbtc

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You make a point, but it's not enough to just throw your hands in the air and say "sh*t happens" because if we all took that attitude we would have no objective way of assessing whether a service was adequate or not

The ideal thing would clearly be for the train to have continued on its "normal" line on time.

However, given the disruption to the main line, instead of just shrugging their shoulders, the TOC (and signal staff) came up with "Plan B" where the train was diverted via another line so it could continue its journey with a minor delay. Not ideal, but better than sitting there for an hour or two...

What irritates me is the way that the newspaper article was written, suggesting the train had been diverted because it needed a wash, as if the TOC was so out of touch that they subjected passengers to the wash deliberately.

To make the best of the situation and come up with an alternative (when things have gone wrong) and then have people suggest you are deliberately doing things to make it worse... that's shoddy journalism.
 

jon0844

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Shoddy journalism because the writer didn't even succeed in making it sound like SET had diverted people to wash the train; when you read it, it was quite obvious that it was done to keep the train going.

Actually, reading it again, it seems that the writer quite possibly wrote the story and the sub picked up the meaning and ensured the final paragraph let everyone draw the same conclusion - but given their deadlines, probably couldn't get the story changed completely or pulled.

Metro will sometimes run news that was obviously written weeks ago, and not used then (as in probably not interesting enough) but as a filler on a slow news day or when an advertiser pulls out. To be fair, in print, you sometimes do have to run with things that you aren't happy with. It's not good, but there's no real alternative.
 

ANorthernGuard

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The ideal thing would clearly be for the train to have continued on its "normal" line on time.

However, given the disruption to the main line, instead of just shrugging their shoulders, the TOC (and signal staff) came up with "Plan B" where the train was diverted via another line so it could continue its journey with a minor delay. Not ideal, but better than sitting there for an hour or two...

What irritates me is the way that the newspaper article was written, suggesting the train had been diverted because it needed a wash, as if the TOC was so out of touch that they subjected passengers to the wash deliberately.

To make the best of the situation and come up with an alternative (when things have gone wrong) and then have people suggest you are deliberately doing things to make it worse... that's shoddy journalism.

I thought it was a cracking piece of improvisation followed by a really shoddy piece of Journalism lol
 

chuckles1066

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Of course, the average commuter with an average IQ of a grand total of 1 probably doesn't realize that.

Careful, you're getting dangerously close to implying that the British education system is churning out idiots.

And, as that's my belief, no free ride for you on my tail :D
 

Bittern

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About a month or so ago, I was alighting at Glasgow Central off a busy 314. I went to one of the doors, saw a notice on it that said it wasn't working, and went to another door. As I did, one person got up and headed for the same (broken) door. She walked past me as I headed for another door. Arrival at Central, and I get off fine, but at the broken door, a giant group of commuters await inside the train for them to open, and not one of them thinks to read the notice, and the person who saw me walking AWAY from said door obviously didn't think that I did so for a reason. It took them a wee while to realize that the doors were...




wait for it...





...not working!
 

Flamingo

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Most commuters think there is only one door on a train, That must have been the one that was broken.
 

class156

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About a month or so ago, I was alighting at Glasgow Central off a busy 314. I went to one of the doors, saw a notice on it that said it wasn't working, and went to another door. As I did, one person got up and headed for the same (broken) door. She walked past me as I headed for another door. Arrival at Central, and I get off fine, but at the broken door, a giant group of commuters await inside the train for them to open, and not one of them thinks to read the notice, and the person who saw me walking AWAY from said door obviously didn't think that I did so for a reason. It took them a wee while to realize that the doors were...

wait for it...

...not working!

I had a similar experiance on a 318 recently, I noticed that the door I was planning to get on at had a door defective notice so I went to the other door in the carriage to get to my usual seat under the pantograph. It was amusing to see the other passengers scratch their heads and wonder why the door wasn't working.
 

nr_signaller

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Can i just point out those praising SET for showing inititive..

..it would have been the signaller who sent it on its diversion, so credit to him/her!
 

jopsuk

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Surely SET control would have needed to authorise it, so that the groundstaff at the yard could be informed?
 

chuckles1066

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However, despite this, we managed in the last 12 months:

Bristol Suburban: Punctuality 90.5% Reliability 99.3%


Try to achieve similar in the banking sector, with 30 year-old computers and an equivalent level of disruption from external sources, and then come back and tell us how to do our job.

A genuine question; what is meant by "reliability"?

Is it that the route is A-B and the train accomplishes it without breaking down?

I'm genuinely curious as to where shortformed services fit into the performance figures - you know where I'm going with this, the 08.37 service from Patchway is regularly shortformed, I'd be genuinely interested in a % figure relating to that service on its own seeing as its the service of choice for 9a.m Bristol commuters.

I'm told the 07.53 Filton Abbey Wood to Swindon service turned up on Thursday with one coach! One.
 

tbtc

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the 08.37 service from Patchway is regularly shortformed

You regularly mention this.

Does the timetable promise how long the train will be (like the "8" or "12" you get in some timetables for London commuter routes)?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I thought it was a cracking piece of improvisation followed by a really shoddy piece of Journalism lol

Agreed.
 

LAX54

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Thing is there wouldn't have been a story if the train sat at a Red for a couple of hours... shame when a TOC gets beaten up for keeping a service running

All this SET duid this, SET did that, I think you will find it was the Signaller, the NWR Contoller and the MOM that sorted it, and then told SET that is what they were going to do, if it was within a 'yard' then the points will need to have been 'clipped'
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can i just point out those praising SET for showing inititive..

..it would have been the signaller who sent it on its diversion, so credit to him/her!

Spot on, not much to do with SET, apart from the Driver agreeing to the move.
 

jon0844

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Presumably the SET staff were "route trained" through the carriage wash? ;)

Presumably, unless it's only depot staff that take them through?

As usual, even though all the facts might be known here - the papers that printed this story have long moved on, leaving most people to think SET were trying to clean trains in passenger service to save time.

No, scratch that, that's not going to get people outraged enough. Let's say SET were doing it to save money, to help boost the fatcat salaries of the management. Damn, evil managers allowing this sort of thing to happen!
 

tbtc

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Presumably, unless it's only depot staff that take them through?

As usual, even though all the facts might be known here - the papers that printed this story have long moved on, leaving most people to think SET were trying to clean trains in passenger service to save time.

No, scratch that, that's not going to get people outraged enough. Let's say SET were doing it to save money, to help boost the fatcat salaries of the management. Damn, evil managers allowing this sort of thing to happen!

I can see the quote now:

{quote]South East Trains, who made eleventyone billion profit last year, decided washing the train was more important than the thousands of passengers squeezed onto their train...[/quote]

I have been on buses which have had to stop in petrol stations to top up the fuel when things have gone wrong - imagine that on the railways!
 

jon0844

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I think this might have been included on the Daily Mail story*

Mr F Cat, CEO of South Eastern Trains, and Conservative Party member, said: "The profit of our business is far more important than the lives of our dirty, unwashed and, frankly, smelly passengers who travel on our trains. If I had a choice, I'd ban everyone from getting on our trains completely, but for now they should just consider getting up earlier to allow for us to get on with doing whatever the hell we like. It's only a shame that the windows were closed on the train when it went through the train wash, and I will be speaking to the ground staff responsible to ensure that next time everyone is soaked."

* haven't checked, or I might have made it up.
 

chuckles1066

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You regularly mention this.

Sorry, I feel a bit like a dentist who's hit a raw nerve.

Does the timetable promise how long the train will be (like the "8" or "12" you get in some timetables for London commuter routes)?

I don't believe so - but I'm sure it's somewhere in FGW's business plan (they *do* have a business plan, don't they?) and their SLA (they *do* have an SLA, don't they?)

I think it's supposed to be four coaches these days, it was three during the latter part of 2010.
 

Nevasleep

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Good work by Southeastern to keep the train going, but possibly poor communication by the driver/guard (which shouldn't happen these days).

With many people its the lack of information which makes delays or diversions even more unbearable.
 
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