Commuter Sues TfL Over "Rammed Platforms"

[zwk500]

The air quality issue only really significantly affects staff (who I believe do have a poor life expectancy as a result). Most others don't spend long enough down there for it to be a major issue, though it is true that as London's atmosphere cleans up with the increasing deprecation of ICE powered cars and the use of coal/wood for home heating that the Tube becomes disproportionately bad.

Although PEDs would help reduce the amount of crap kicked up from the track into the platform tunnels, even if they were only shoulder-height models.

You could probably do fences down the yellow line for far less than actual PEDs and gain much of the benefit.

Given the trap & Drag does happen, the issue with fixed fences and gaps is that if somebody does get trapped they could get dragged between the train and the fence or into the end post and crushed against it. It would also be harder to verify the platform interface is clear where the fence does have a gap. PEDs are a second line against trapping and the drag would force the door open, triggering an alarm/safety cut out. A clear platform edge at least gives you sightlines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the trap & Drag does happen, the issue with fixed fences and gaps is that if somebody does get trapped they could get dragged between the train and the fence or into the end post and crushed against it. It would also be harder to verify the platform interface is clear where the fence does have a gap.

It would be easier, not harder, though you would probably want to reposition the cameras so the view that the space behind the barrier was clear was easier to see. Potentially you could even add some tech that doesn't work without them, for instance sensors that the space was clear.

 

[zwk500]

It would be easier, not harder, though you would probably want to reposition the cameras so the view that the space behind the barrier was clear was easier to see. Potentially you could even add some tech that doesn't work without them, for instance sensors that the space was clear.

If PEDs aren't worth the cost, then fitting tech to try and jerry-rig the stopgap isn't going to be worth it easier. It'd be easier to fit passenger-counting sensors above the tunnels and traffic lights further back in the station to manage the crowds.

 

[rebmcr]

The air quality issue only really significantly affects staff (who I believe do have a poor life expectancy as a result). Most others don't spend long enough down there for it to be a major issue, though it is true that as London's atmosphere cleans up with the increasing deprecation of ICE powered cars and the use of coal/wood for home heating that the Tube becomes disproportionately bad.

In that aspect, TfL can enjoy the fact that the rollout of regenerative braking continues. IIRC, the dust from brake pads causes almost all of the air quality problems.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If PEDs aren't worth the cost, then fitting tech to try and jerry-rig the stopgap isn't going to be worth it easier. It'd be easier to fit passenger-counting sensors above the tunnels and traffic lights further back in the station to manage the crowds.

PseudoPEDs have other advantages, e.g. reducing dwells by people being ready in the right place and helping to keep exit routes clear.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jan 2023 ==

In that aspect, TfL can enjoy the fact that the rollout of regenerative braking continues. IIRC, the dust from brake pads causes almost all of the air quality problems.

EMUs have always used rheostatic, haven't they?

 

[zwk500]

PseudoPEDs have other advantages, e.g. reducing dwells by people being ready in the right place and helping to keep exit routes clear.

People got very upset when they painted that info on the floor because commuters lost their head start over tourists! But also it doesn't need a fence to mark it.

 

[Dstock7080]

EMUs have always used rheostatic, haven't they?

1967 Tube Stock were the first on the Underground, everything before was friction braking.

 

[philthetube]

Although PEDs would help reduce the amount of crap kicked up from the track into the platform tunnels, even if they were only shoulder-height models.

Given the trap & Drag does happen, the issue with fixed fences and gaps is that if somebody does get trapped they could get dragged between the train and the fence or into the end post and crushed against it. It would also be harder to verify the platform interface is clear where the fence does have a gap. PEDs are a second line against trapping and the drag would force the door open, triggering an alarm/safety cut out. A clear platform edge at least gives you sightlines.

Trap and drag has been totally illuminated with the S stock, the sensitive edge tech is brilliant and reliable, if you want to improve passenger safety retro fitting this would be a good use of spare cash.

It would be easier, not harder, though you would probably want to reposition the cameras so the view that the space behind the barrier was clear was easier to see. Potentially you could even add some tech that doesn't work without them, for instance sensors that the space was clear.

The problem here is curved platforms, you end up with a gap between train and doors wide enough for a person to fit in, then when the train moves the corner overhang of the carriages crushes the person.

You also need someone with better concentration levels that a train driver to constantly monitor cctv screens and a system to pass info to driver not to move, drivers currently have up to 8 screens to watch so asking for more from them is not possible

 

[WizCastro197]

I am glad someone already said it, as I was thinking the same. Some platforms already have barriers to stop someone walking from a corridor and going straight onto the track (and by walking, it's more likely someone in a wheelchair or buggy that could potentially roll onto the line).

More of these along the platform would surely work almost as well as PEDs, but simply without protection of the areas where the doors line up. That's still a significantly smaller number of areas where someone could fall or be pushed on to the line. And it does make it easier to see where to stand/queue.

I think Kennington has something like this, it is needed there, busy interchange between north Northern branches.

Is it possible to install platform edge doors at stations like Waterloo or Embankment on the Bakerloo Line given the platform curve?
If TfL loses and platform doors have to be installed who is going to pay. Expect fares to increase to pay for it.

Is there any point fitting PEDs to Waterloo and Embankment, when the stock on the route is due to be replaced within the next few years, (I think adding PEDs are part of the plan?). As the PEDs fitted in line with the doors of the 1972 stock, will have to replaced anyway to fit the new stock anyway, perhaps increasing costs again? Not to mention stock compatibility.

I may well be wrong.

 

[thomalex]

Is there any point fitting PEDs to Waterloo and Embankment, when the stock on the route is due to be replaced within the next few years, (I think adding PEDs are part of the plan?). As the PEDs fitted in line with the doors of the 1972 stock, will have to replaced anyway to fit the new stock anyway, perhaps increasing costs again? Not to mention stock compatibility.

It's always been my understanding the long term ambition is to install PEDs on the busy deep level stations and it will be the new trains that enable this. I doubt the outcome of this case will be for PEDs to be installed immediately and if it recommends they should be installed, which is quite likely, then TfL will reiterate its ambition to do so when circumstances allow.

As has already been mentioned the Northern line extension stations have been built so PEDs can be added. The Jubilee extension PEDs will also need to be extensively revamped when they get around to replacing those trains given the door placements so this may present the ideal opportunity for a wider roll out.

 

[DavyCrocket]

Trap and drag has been totally illuminated with the S stock, the sensitive edge tech is brilliant and reliable, if you want to improve passenger safety retro fitting this would be a good use of spare cash.

The problem here is curved platforms, you end up with a gap between train and doors wide enough for a person to fit in, then when the train moves the corner overhang of the carriages crushes the person.

You also need someone with better concentration levels that a train driver to constantly monitor cctv screens and a system to pass info to driver not to move, drivers currently have up to 8 screens to watch so asking for more from them is not possible

Not totally true about eliminating trap and drag with S stock. It is still possible to have a trap and drag (and that is without an override of equipment by staff) and also a drag by another part of the vehicle, where sensitive edge would not factor.
These have happened

 

[philthetube]

Not totally true about eliminating trap and drag with S stock. It is still possible to have a trap and drag (and that is without an override of equipment by staff) and also a drag by another part of the vehicle, where sensitive edge would not factor.
These have happened

can you provide source for this?

 

[WizCastro197]

As has already been mentioned the Northern line extension stations have been built so PEDs can be added. The Jubilee extension PEDs will also need to be extensively revamped when they get around to replacing those trains given the door placements so this may present the ideal opportunity for a wider roll out.

Is there compatibility within the 1995 stock with PEDs? Aside from that, the Northern line's Battersea Extension has very wide platforms and not immense use (based off how many trains I see at Kennington come from/to Battersea completely empty), therefore the likelihood someone is to be dragged under a train is quite low, so no point in spending on the installation and subsequent maintenance.