Commute - how much is too much?

[Goatboy]

I disagree with using anything other than a marginal costing basis as a method of comparison between road and rail - after all, most people would run a car even if they used the train, therefore the cost of ownership is incurred anyway.

But even if we purely look at the marginal costs of commuting from Southampton to London - so fuel, extra servicing, tyres and parking in London - it's going to cost more than £20 a day.

Season tickets look like insane value for money - if anything they do not generate nearly as much for the rail firms as they ought to. The cost of walkon fares looks exceptionally punative in comparison to what can only be described as the season ticket gravy train.

 

[SF-02]

Each year we hear sound bites of season tickets hitting x value from y place.

Now I am no lover of the year on year inflation busting fares to what feels like a standing still service - without going into the whys and wherefore to the reasons for this.

£5k for Swindon and £8.5k for Gloucester etc (I reserve the right to have got these numbers wrong)

I also read big numbers on twitter from fellow GA travellers talking of large numbers from places such as Colchester, Ipswich and Norwich.

I do have to say I think some of these people are expecting too much, in order to work in London I had to move to London.

I don't think it is reasonable to be on £20/30k a year and expect to be able to live in Ipswich etc.

You cannot have your cake and eat it re: house/rent prices.

On 20 or 30k you will only be able to get a dump in most of London. Central London is now entirely for the rich or those on welfare receiving benefits.

Most people on that salary would find a far better quality of life in other cities in the UK or in Europe.

How much is too much for fares cannot be answered in isolation but along with how much are rents/house prices (way too high by both international comparisons to similar developed nations and historically when looking at the ratio of wages to rent/house prices over the past 50 years) and wages which are stagnant along with increasing lack of job security with zero hour contract and agency employment.

In a world where wages are growing 1% a year, where we had house prices increase above 10% a year each year from 2000 to 2007, and now the govt again inflating a bubble to win an election regardless of the wider dangers, and succeeding with 10%+ annual rises again in London (and 21% in Manchester according to nationwide), then 3% rises are too high, along with the 5% last year and above inflation going back a few years before that.

 

[paul1609]

The other thing to bear in mind is that long term government policy is for passengers to be increasingly bearing the cost of rail rather than the taxpayer.

If season tickets were not regulated and left at the mercy of pure market forces, I suspect that some long distance commuters would be incentivised to look for employment closer to home. Which may encourage investment in the regions at the expense of London....

Problem is that the UK is competing in a Global Economy make London unattractive and its more likely that the investment will go to Frankfurt, Paris or a number of places in the Middle or Far east rather than Birmingham or Manchester.

 

[VauxhallandI]

On 20 or 30k you will only be able to get a dump in most of London. Central London is now entirely for the rich or those on welfare receiving benefits.

Most people on that salary would find a far better quality of life in other cities in the UK or in Europe.

How much is too much for fares cannot be answered in isolation but along with how much are rents/house prices (way too high by both international comparisons to similar developed nations and historically when looking at the ratio of wages to rent/house prices over the past 50 years) and wages stagnant along with increasing lack of job security with zero hour contract and agency employment.

Indeed but nobody lives in Central London unless they rent with a partner or friends. I think we are talking zone 4 and outwards.

People paying 20% etc on season tickets, should they not work locally and have a better quality of life? As they are obviously not benefitting salary wise for the trip to London.

 

[Be3G]

Well you can buy mine for £210k and be in the City in 45mins

Of course, you're still benefitting there from the fact that you live just outside London (and the M25) – you won't get much for £210K once you drive a few minutes down the road and enter the GLA boundary!

 

[PHILIPE]

Considering the most recent post on the thread was only 2 days ago and which included discussions re costs I still can't understand why a new thread has been started. Could somebody tell me which thread to use if I wish to post something. Perhaps the Moderators could merge, please, to avoid confusion.

 

[Andrewlong]

A 12 month season ticket from the Worthing area to London Victoria is around £4400. when you say it quick it is a lot of money but when you break it down it is about £84 per week and £17ish per day. And if you really want to you can use it at the weekend which then makes it even cheaper per week/day.

How many of us could take a car from the Sussex coast to London for the day for £17. and park in the congestion zone

It is a shame the TOCS could not help customers by say doing a direct debit scheme maybe over 6 months. I would imagine most people would not mind paying a little bit extra to cover the admin charges for this, i wouldn't

Some employers have loan schemes where the annual season ticket cost is spread over 12 months. An alternative is to buy a ticket every 3 months. Savings won't be as good but I would not like to handover 12 months of season ticket money in 1 go.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Some employers have loan schemes where the annual season ticket cost is spread over 12 months. An alternative is to buy a ticket every 3 months. Savings won't be as good but I would not like to handover 12 months of season ticket money in 1 go.

I can pay mine back in either 6,7,8,9,10,11 or 12 months.

I have played with many of the options over the years. I'm yet to agree with myself which one is the best!

 

[telstarbox]

You only get the Gold Card benefit if you have an annual season ticket.

 

[dvboy]

In response to the original post, there's a big difference between earning £20,000pa and earning £30,000pa.

 

[VauxhallandI]

In response to the original post, there's a big difference between earning £20,000pa and earning £30,000pa.

To be fair the essence of the OP was that people live 100 miles from their destination and then bleat that it costs a bit of cash to do the journey.

When in fact it has been demonstrated that the cost actually pretty reasonable.

I wish I could say the same for the reliability of GA

 

[westv]

To be fair the essence of the OP was that people live 100 miles from their destination and then bleat that it costs a bit of cash to do the journey.

When in fact it has been demonstrated that the cost actually pretty reasonable.

I wish I could say the same for the reliability of GA

People are more likely to complain if they see their season ticket go up every year more than their salary and they can't personally personally see any difference in their service or they feel that it's getting worse.

 

[Hellfire]

It is a shame the TOCS could not help customers by say doing a direct debit scheme maybe over 6 months. I would imagine most people would not mind paying a little bit extra to cover the admin charges for this, i wouldn't

I think the TOCs might be concerned that someone signs up for a monthly Direct Debit and, after three months stops paying. Could be difficult to recover the ticket and prevent the passenger from continuing to travel without a great deal of time and expense. Maybe its not worth them setting it up.

 

[fowler9]

I guess as having lived a life as a financial migrant I can't see the problem with following the money.

I can't understand how families all live in each other's pockets and don't stray out of their home towns.

Everyone has different drivers and reasons it was the moaning about the cost of your own decision that bemuses me.

I wouldn't expect anyone to live in the pockets of their family but I have seen time and time again the results of people living well away from the safety net of friends and family.

 

[RJ]

I'm quite happy with a regular commute of less than 30 minutes. Living in Zone 2 and working on the right side of Zone 1, I quite happily take the bus to work. I also commute in from Canterbury sometimes and it's a fantastic commute. Very expensive, but worth it.

A perk of working in the transport industry is generous concessions on commuting. Many graduates where I am rent in Zone 1 or 2, not having to pay anything to get to work. Funnily enough, a significant proportion of colleagues with families choose to live outside of London, taking advantage of the 75% reimbursement on season tickets.

 

[Moonshot]

I wouldn't expect anyone to live in the pockets of their family but I have seen time and time again the results of people living well away from the safety net of friends and family.

Some truth in that.....at one point not so long back, my immediate family were split by around 400 miles in the UK.....online bank transfers are a big plus nowadays!!!

 

[VauxhallandI]

People are more likely to complain if they see their season ticket go up every year more than their salary and they can't personally personally see any difference in their service or they feel that it's getting worse.

I often think it may be worthwhile for TOC's to do some more but maybe less effective cosmetic improvements to try and offset this perception.

 

[fowler9]

Some truth in that.....at one point not so long back, my immediate family were split by around 400 miles in the UK.....online bank transfers are a big plus nowadays!!!

I know what you mean, I have spent time in New Zealand along with other mates. We have gradually all come home as we have got older. Without wanting to sound morbid the bank transfers stop cutting the mustard once people start passing away. Everyone is back home now apart from one lad estranged from his family with a Kiwi wife and a mate in China who can't afford to move home.

 

[DarloRich]

I often think it may be worthwhile for TOC's to do some more but maybe less effective cosmetic improvements to try and offset this perception.

why bother - they know enough people will choose/be forced to pay for the tickets almost regardless of price. Why not just pocket the money?

 

[VauxhallandI]

why bother - they know enough people will choose/be forced to pay for the tickets almost regardless of price. Why not just pocket the money?

Can I not dream a little dream?

 

[DarloRich]

Can I not dream a little dream?

i agree they should do more - they just wont because they have an almost entirely captive market.

 

[al78]

I can't understand how families all live in each other's pockets and don't stray out of their home towns.

If your elderly parents get to the point of needing care, it is a lot easier to do this if you live close to them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Who can live by train alone, outside of London and maybe Glasgow I doubt many.

*raises hand*

I would like to point out that being single, childless and a moderately fit cyclist makes it much easier to give up the car.

 

[fowler9]

If your elderly parents get to the point of needing care, it is a lot easier to do this if you live close to them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


*raises hand*

I would like to point out that being single, childless and a moderately fit cyclist makes it much easier to give up the car.

Just a ditto to that. I don't struggle at all using public transport foot and bike in Liverpool.

 

[JGR]

Who can live by train alone, outside of London and maybe Glasgow I doubt many.

Given the significant price premium on car insurance for young people, and the third off due to railcards, it makes perfect sense for me to forgo having a car, at least until I'm no longer eligible for a railcard.

Then again my commute is just 30-40 minutes by bike, or 20 minutes on the bus.
If I want to do something I can get the train to London or another place which has public transport, without needing a car.

I've never found being separated from family a problem at all. Being 200-600 km away from them can be useful at times :P.

 

[fowler9]

Given the significant price premium on car insurance for young people, and the third off due to railcards, it makes perfect sense for me to forgo having a car, at least until I'm no longer eligible for a railcard.

Then again my commute is just 30-40 minutes by bike, or 20 minutes on the bus.
If I want to do something I can get the train to London or another place which has public transport, without needing a car.

I've never found being separated from family a problem at all. Being 200-600 km away from them can be useful at times :P.

Well it can be useful as long as what you get up to doesn't make the press.

 

[1e10]

I think the TOCs might be concerned that someone signs up for a monthly Direct Debit and, after three months stops paying. Could be difficult to recover the ticket and prevent the passenger from continuing to travel without a great deal of time and expense. Maybe its not worth them setting it up.

Would TOCs be able to sell the debt on to debt collectors if passengers fail to pay? I think it won't be as hard as you make it sound considering you'll have their details as a season ticket holder.

 

[IanXC]

I think the TOCs might be concerned that someone signs up for a monthly Direct Debit and, after three months stops paying. Could be difficult to recover the ticket and prevent the passenger from continuing to travel without a great deal of time and expense. Maybe its not worth them setting it up.

I suppose its just possible this could be resolved with the introduction of smart cards as the unpaid ticket could just be blocked?

 

[fowler9]

Would TOCs be able to sell the debt on to debt collectors if passengers fail to pay? I think it won't be as hard as you make it sound considering you'll have their details as a season ticket holder.

Ignoring debt collectors is actually very easy. They tend to try for a while until they realise they are getting no where and then give up. Legally appointed bailiffs are a different matter.

 

[IanXC]

Ignoring debt collectors is actually very easy. They tend to try for a while until they realise they are getting no where and then give up. Legally appointed bailiffs are a different matter.

One of the ugly realities is that debt collection firms will sell debts of 'Person A' again and again until they're owned by a firm who owns other debts of 'Person A'. They'll then add the new outstanding amount to any debt payment plan they already have in place with the debtor.

 

[Flamingo]

Some people travel long distances so they can have the best of both worlds - a well paid job in the city plus a nice home in the countryside. Plus on the GWML into Paddington! it's not that long a journey from Swindon assuming you can get a seat.

I have NEVER seen a weekday commuter train that had passengers standing from Swindon unless there had been severe disruption. The only exception to this can be the first off-peak train, which should not really be a consideration to a commuter, as with their season ticket they can catch the last Peak train a short time earlier which will have plenty of room!